I am starting a new project and was going to use it learn asp.net mvc.
But time is short and I won't have time to meet the requirements, learn mvc and end up with a well designed system. So I need to start with asp.net v4 and EF.
What sort of things should I do to allow an easy transition to MVC later?
I'd say the most important thing is the separation between business logic and presentation logic.
If you have a lot of business logic embedded on the aspx or on the code behind pages the transition will be harder.
Another thing that could complicate the transition is how intensively you use asp net web controls. If you can use independent UI controls from server side language (not everywhere of course, but as much as possible), things will be easier to migrate.
If you don't have time to meet the requirements, then you didn't give yourself enough time. If you are limited by time it's presumably because you are working for someone else, and you're constrained by their timetable and/or budget, so you need to build on what you know.
You should never blindly implement on a framework you don't know. You need to build time for prototyping, learn on your own, or pull in talent that already knows. If you are using a new framework and there is uncertainty, you should have enough time that you can cut after a certain point and rebuild in a way you do know you can do it.
You should also build on the best framework for the job -- there is no one-size-fits-all solution for any problem. What framework you choose should be based on the user requirements, technical/business limitations, projected growth and life (maintenance needs), and your available resources. Choosing is based on your personal past experience, and prototyping. If you don't have the experience and don't have time to prototype in at least a couple frameworks, you are in a bad spot right from the start.
That all said, I personally think ending up with a "well designed" system in WebForms is INCREDIBLY difficult, especially compared to doing it within MVC, and that in the ASP.NET space MVC is a much better framework in almost all situations than WebForms. I am biased and will outright say I think Webforms is fundamentally flawed in its philosophy; most of the code works as small examples but falls apart and becomes unmaintable as you grow, and even the example code from MS suffers this issue. But you should not use some random person on the internet's opinion as the basis for your design choices. I am just pointing this out because I want to be clear that I am not endorsing specifically WebForms, I am endorsing "use what you know" -- whether you "know" it from previously using or take time to learn it.
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I've been working in ASP.NET for several years now (since the 1.0 days!), but I've never been formally instructed. I'm fully capable of doing pretty much anything I want and I've built several production-level, data-driven sites, including one that does over a million in sales a year (according to the owner). But I'm starting to get the feeling that the holes in my knowlege are dragging my productivity down. I read a lot and try to learn wherever I can to try to stay up with all the new technologies, but sometimes I just don't get it, and I think it's because of my lack of formal training.
Does anyone have any ideas on the best way to fill in these gaps without having to rehash the fundamentals?
Thanks
1) Read the Code of popular Open Source Projects. There are a few that have some really good practices in place.
I recommend checking out BlogEngine.NET. Also if you're more ambitious, I'd suggest looking at the code for ASP.NET MVC 1.0.
2) Sometimes you need to "get back to the basics" when you've been working with a particular framework since a much earlier version. In this case, it can be really useful to pick up a book that covers some of the newer features.
Here's a good book that shows of some of the new features in C# 3.0:
C# 3.0 Design Patterns
3) It may seem odd, but reading up on other languages/platforms (such as Ruby on Rails) will help you in the way you design your classes and code by taking tips of the good and bad of different platforms and combining them.
4) Read some books on general best practices and development methodologies.
Some of these books I recommend are:
The Pragmatic Programmer: From Journeyman to Master
Practices of an Agile Developer: Working in the Real World
Code Complete: A Practical Handbook of Software Construction
I'm in the same boat; been a .Net developer for 6 years. While I do have a CS degree, I don't have any formal training in ASP.Net; I learn it on the job as projects come up.
I found the best way to figure out what to learn is to keep your eye on .Net developer blogs. Some I follow:
David Hayden http://www.davidhayden.com/blog.aspx
CodingHorror.com (you might be familiar with it ;-)
Scott Hanselman http://www.hanselman.com/blog/
Usually from reading their blogs, I pick up on what the latest .Net solutions that are out there and point me in the direction of new tech I should look into further.
Overall though, I can only give you the advice I give junior devs at my company; realize you can't possibly be expected to know everything but always be eager to learn. Good luck!
I can absolutely identify. I've been programming since 1997 and really don't have any formal training to speak of. With regards to ASP.NET, everything I've learned has been through open code (Community Server, BlogEngine.NET, the other ASP.NET Starter Kits), books, LearnVisualStudio.net, and constantly being thrown in the fire.
I have a MASSIVE inferiority complex as I'm always wondering "did I do this the smart way or the inexperienced way". All I know is that my customers are happy, the errors that occur are few and are fixed quickly, and I keep getting work.
Luckily I have a passion for my work and that's what drives me to keep improving (slow though it may be).
If you're a "people person" then I think user group meetings are a great resource. I'm a bit of an introvert and unless someone who's smart reaches across and shakes my hand, I pretty much rely on the speaker's presentation to teach me something new. Probably not the best way to go and also probably why I don't go that much.
But again, I would stress the open projects, especially Community Server.
Seek out people better than you and learn from them.
Take some classes or join a user group.
If you are looking at conferences, consider finding a local Code Camp. These conferences are often very low key, but have excellent information content. They involve local presenters and attendees so you can build up your contacts and a set of people you can run things past when you need help. In addition, you might want to find (or start) a local .NET group where you can learn together. These can be hard to get off the ground, but when done well can be an excellent source of community learning.
Look for interesting ways to break your established patters - even at a loss of productivity.
Otherwise, it sounds like you are already in a pretty good spot. You can deliver on current requirements and sound like you can pick up new tricks when needed.
Really, the best way to learn new techniques is to work on a different project - even if that means changing jobs. If you have relevant and continuous experience since 2001, you should be able to pick your projects.
I've been coding PHP on a current project and it's been an interesting break from webforms. If anything, I'm getting good perspective on both models and really looking forward to doing some work in MVC.
I'll probably get some -1's for this, but as a fellow ASP.NET developer I don't think you really need to learn ALL that the framework has to offer. The reason I say that is that over the years my LACK of knowledge of all the cute little conveniences of ASP.NET has caused me to write better performing and more robust web apps for Windows. Balanced design patterns (separation of concerns) WITHOUT OVERDOING IT will make more of a "better" ASP.NET web app than using all of the controls and tools that come with the framework.
Case in point is the ajax stuff you get with ASP.NET, and also data binding. Since ASP.NET was late in the game with Ajax, I started off with my own ajax wrapper (based on an early ajax book) and then moving to jQuery. My co-workers all swear by the UpdatePanels and 3rd party controls, and quite often the user experience ends up worse and more confusing than a regular post back (and then we have to inject javascript to make it perform better and more seemlessly). As far as data binding, I've yet to find a canned control (from Microsoft or any 3rd party) that handles 2-way binding better than the framework Rick Strahl came up with back in the 1.1 days. We built a framework on top of a paper and some base classes he released, and I've yet to see something that I think handles data binding any better in ASP.NET (well...besides WPF/Silverlight...those frameworks really nailed it IMO).
So, to me, the path to upgrading your ASP.NET skills is to come up with some good ways to separate your business logic into logical components in the cleanest possible way, and learn the hell out of C# and JavaScript (and/or a JS wrapper library like jQuery). For me, coming from a LAMP background before learning ASP.NET, I absolutely love C# and Visual Studio, but I'm not such a huge fan of the high level ASP.NET controls.
This is a pretty broad question, and hard to address. I perceive myself in a similar space to you, so I guess I can elaborate on what I've been focusing on to improve as a developer which might be of some help.
I mostly write business and commerce related web apps, and my focus has been on a developing a solid understanding of separation of concerns, domain driven design, and enterprise design patterns.
Some books on general software design which I found revelatory were Code Complete by Steve McConnell and Head First Design Patterns by Freeman & Freeman.
I read SO, Code Better, DDD Step by Step, and a number of other blogs regularly.
Dissect well written code from others, and learn from them. Learn from your peers. If you're in a stifling work environment that doesn't give you the opportunity to grow as a developer, consider looking for a new job.
Learn a new language in a completely different framework - I've been teaching myself Ruby on Rails at home and it has given me an interesting perspective on the ASP.NET work that I do commercially.
Given that you're an ASP.NET web developer, learning MVC.NET will certainly help you to think about front-end development in a new, refreshing way.
If you can afford the money and time (or can get your company to pay for it), take a course at DevelopMentor. They have courses across the country and all year round. They are generally a week long and are in depth.
I have read many articles on the MVP pattern. Some folks say it is too complex and some say it's outdated. However to me it would seem like the perfect way to provide unit testing access to the UI - which is what I'm aiming to achieve.
Have you used MVP and if so what do you think?
Model View Presenter, Model View Controller, traditional three tier (UI/Business Logic/Data Storage) or virtually any other architecture that isolates the various concerns of your code help you write tests.
Often the architecture is somewhat dictated by your tool: the Asp.Net MVP tags seem to indicate that you have already made your choice there. The trickiest part to test in any configuration is the UI, because even if you create a mock UI that performs all the functions the user can... at some point you will have to render it in a browser and assure yourself that the theory is sound.
Note that this does not discount the benefits of a mock presenter UI with unit tests that exercise all the options the user will have: doing so puts you light years ahead of someone doing straight UI testing alone. On the other hand, I have yet to find a program where the UI always rendered as we expected in every browser. Finding these cases still requires human intervention (or at best something like Selenium or Test Complete once you have the initial run-throughs).
Regarding the "obsolete" aspect, I think that is a red herring. There are of course religious wars regarding architectural choices, but the reason that MVP is being used in some ASP.NET projects is that there are quite a few who felt the traditional ASP.NET stack was too tightly integrated between the UI and the Business Logic. (I'm one of them.) For small projects that tight coupling isn't that big of a deal, and contributes to the quick "bring it up and running" ability of the form designer with databinding. In large projects, the limitations of these tools show up in a hurry, and having a "middle" tier hacked back in after the fact is a challenge: one you don't have to face with MVP.
I did an ASP.NET project using MVP last year. Yes, I was able to cover more with unit testing than I could before in the webforms world, but it felt hacky. Also, try explaining what you are doing to someone else. For some reason, people have a hard time grokking it. If I had to do it over again, I'd go with the ASP.NET MVC framework, since it is officially supported with tons of documentation and buzz, and not just a hack.
I am trying to decide whether to learn ASP.NET MVC (or to spend the time learning another technology that interests me). I know that it is an elegant framework, but I am trying to assess my future job opportunities if I invest in this skill. In your estimation, how long is it going to be before demand for ASP.NET MVC developers rivals that for developers in the other top web dev frameworks? Is it a matter of a year? 2 years? 3+? On a related note, do you see use of ASP.NET MVC surpassing classic ASP.NET in the foreseeable future? Scott Guthrie says the two will exist side by side, but I'm curious just how much of the mind share ASP.NET MVC is expected to grab.
I know this is a speculative question; I'm just interested in your subjective hunches.
For mainstream adoption, I wouldn't expect it will really take off until after RTM. Initially work will be limited to new projects, which I suspect there may be fewer of with the economy being as it is. The real increase in jobs will come when there are more established projects requiring maintenance.
As for surpassing the original ASP.NET, that will happen when more older projects are decommissioned, either in one hit, or by sections being replaced by new MVC functionality.
Personally, I would learn at least the basics now, so as to be ready for an increase after RTM.
"but I am trying to assess my future job opportunities if I invest in this skill"
If you want to increase your future job opportunities then what you rather should ask yourself is; "What is the hysterically coolest and funnyest thing I could possibly work on today?"
Because if you think of "what will make you valuable" you will always end up being mediocre. If you however do what's FUN to do you will end up creating competency few others have the capacity to outperform - which always seems to be valuable in the world... ;)
Not to mention that your professional life will be so much better!
Do what's FUN and what you get the most "kicks" out of, then your "value" will increase!
I know for a fact that some companies, including my own, is adapting to asp.net mvc and using it for almost all projects.
Even though it's a Beta, i still see it widely used. This is probably because ASP.NET is such a strong web-language, companies more and more adapt to the better and more evolved technologies such as .net.
In our company, it is becoming the de facto standard for new projects, and we're currently in the middle of porting our main website from ColdFusion Mach-II to ASP.NET MVC, as both are MVC environments, and I see MVC as a superior architectural pattern to web forms and the code-behind model.
Given that Microsoft has put a lot of time and effort into this, I don't think that it's going to fade away by any means, especially when you've got exciting things such as IronRuby.
I think both options will be around for a long time.
The current trend seems to be towards RESTful applications etc and I expect MVC to gain in popularlity. However some projects are more suited for the existing webforms style whilst others will greatly benefit from MVC.
MVC is great and to learn the basics is not going to take long. Go through the tutorials on Scott Guthries blog (although some of the early stuff is out of date and syntax has changes)
MVC does have some disadvantages:
MVC does not use viewstate. This has positive (smaller pages, faster, cleaner model) and negative points. Although not impossible it is trickier to develop items such as controls that need to maintain state e.g. a paging datagrid etc
Many companies already have an investment in existing webforms technologies
i also know some regular companies that are already developing in it, and some that are considering using it. I think it's already at a stage where a regular asp.net programmer would be wise to tinker with it.
We're using it for our next project. It doesn't need to be RTM before you release a project with it. It just needs to pass QA.
I am just starting a new ASP.NET project and using the MVP pattern. I did consider the MS MVC but it is not released yet and would be a big learning curve for some people on the team, so I opted for MVP now and possibly future projects MVC.
Anyway, it seems I will have a single Controller/Presenter class for every webform I have it the project. This is a lot of extra classes, essentially doubling the number of files in the web project. Is this how other people structure MVP or what are the alternatives?
This seems to be a common misconception -> "More files/classes == more complex"
The reason we chose to follow a UI separation pattern is to help separate concerns, make code easier and cheaper to change and maintain and (big, important and) we can unit test the complex parts and still keep the UI layer slim.
I'm going with the beta ASP MVC. The reason being, that while it is still only a beta (PDC very soon, that may have an impact on release and we've had 5 preview releases) it has a better framework to support this style than I could write in a reasonable time frame.
You could of course go with another framework, like castle monorail.
I think a lot of it depends but in most cases that is really the way it ends up going.
I personally use a n-tier architecture with data, business, presentation code. (Who knows what actual format I follow). I do get a lot more files than if I did everything in the aspx, but the code is much easier to manage.
To your question - I have seen many different takes on MVP and seen nothing that reduces the number of files, and I can't think of a way to reduce the number of files.
In my experience, I have reused view interfaces and even code behinds where the view structure is identical, but presenting different data. And you could also think of reusing the controllers where applicable.
I think it is worthwhile to note that having more files will be a natural consequence of moving to a more agile and test-drive development and developers will find it more and more natural as they go. (Just like some of us find it very natural having lots of methods inside a single file...)
As someone who has spent around 10 years programming web applications with Adobe's ColdFusion, I have decided to add ASP.NET as a string to my bow.
For someone who has spent so long with CF and the underlying Java, ASP.NET seems a little alien to me. How should I go about getting up to speed with ASP.NET so that I can be truly dangerous with it? Do I need to know C# at any great amount of detail?
I want to be in a position where I can build basic web apps fairly quickly so I can learn more doing the tricky stuff.
I'm only maybe six months down the same path, but here are some thoughts from my experience so far:
The C# language shouldn't give you much problem if you have very much experience with Java at all (or even CFScript). As a reference, though, when I was starting, I found csharp-station a good primer for language basics. It won't help you much as far as the ASP.NET side goes; but it is good for syntax. More you'll be familiarizing yourself with the .NET libraries. The IDE actually can be an enormous help here.
Here are the three biggest differences I found making the transition:
ASP.NET Server Controls - In ColdFusion, you really have pretty
direct control over the HTML; you
work very closely with the page.
This isn't so much the case in
ASP.NET. The server controls are
meant to relieve you of a lot of the
tedium, but at a cost of maybe some
direct control. As a CF programmer,
I'm very particular about what gets
actually output to the browser; and
at first ASP.NET frustrated me
because it spits out a lot of extra
code. Still, the controls are
really powerful, and it pays to
familiarize yourself with them.
Form and validation controls,
especially, save you from a lot of
the tedium in CF of handling post
back and validation. W3Schools
actually has a decent list of web
server controls.
The page model - ColdFusion is pretty agnostic in terms of page
flow. ASP.NET is very much geared
towards using post backs, and is
very event driven. If you're not
using a framework with CF (e.g.
Model Glue), this may be foreign to
you. .NET takes care of handling a
lot of the post back behavior for
you. Also, not to say that
ColdFusion can't be object and
function driven by good use of
CFC's, but ASP.NET really tries to
push you down the OO path compared
to CF in my experience.
Database access - Using ASP.NET really made me appreciate how
powerful cfquery really is. The
csharp-station site also has a good
tutorial on working with the native
.NET db tools. I haven't worked on
enough projects yet to start looking
around for DB access extensions; I'm
pretty sure Jeff recommended
something that they used for
building this site, so you might
check that out. Otherwise, I really
suggest you familiarize yourself
with the DataSet object. It's
somewhat similar to a query object
in CF, and lets you run query of
queries, etc... Looping over
queries in CF is very common, but it
doesn't happen nearly as much in
ASP.NET because of data binding.
Microsoft has a video called ASP.NET for ColdFusion developers you may be interested in.
Edit, here's another
ADO.NET is a core concept, and I would really recommend taking a course in it. Having a qualified instructor explain exactly what the differences are between a DataSet, DataReader (and so forth -- there are a lot of different data access object types) is invaluable. Not to mention you'll better understand the appropriate time and place to use each; and you can ask questions and get immediate answers in a classroom setting.
I took an ADO.NET class (one night a week, about 8 weeks) at my local university for around $400. Even if my company hadn't paid for it, I would have been happy to, and I can highly recommend anyone trying to learn .NET do the same.