I've got an asp.net application where each client will have their own data entry forms. I'm a bit tired of reinventing this wheel. Does anyone have any good experience with an "off the shelf" component for rapidly building such forms?
The component will need to fit within an existing asp.net site and support layout of the fields, not just "dumping" the fields on the page. The data needs to go back to a database for querying (but can use it's own schema) and some light level of workflow needs to be supported (mostly around completion status). Infopath is a non-starter due to its requirements for sharepoint etc, but if you're thinking along those lines, you have some idea of what I'm looking for. The system must be open for modification as I'm sure we won't be able to find something that does everything we need.
Doesn't matter if it is OSS or commericial.
Thanks!
We've used FeedBack Server here in the past and it worked out pretty good.
Microsoft lightswitch.
Telerik widgets in a web page.
In my application, I have a situation wherein the users will need to have the flexibility to customize the UI to a certain extent. The following are some of the customizations that is being discussed now...
Change Label text associated with the with Use Input controls
Mark a control as Mandatory/Read only/Hidden
Assign a regular expression for the text box
Are there any recommended design patterns for my situation? Seems like I need to store all these in a database and worried about the performance impact if I have to read every element from the database for every page.
Thanks,
Harsha
I would look at some of the open-source CMS or portal systems written in ASP.NET and see how they are doing UI customization (if they are).
Phil Haack has some insight at the following article:
Scripting ASP.NET MVC Views Stored In The Database
http://haacked.com/archive/2009/04/22/scripted-db-views.aspx
Apparently it's not an easy thing to do in ASP.NET. It's easier to do in ASP.NET MVC, because the markup is cleaner and you can control it with jQuery.
The overall concept you are going for is not easy to have system wide, however the specifics you stated are fairly easy.
You'd have to setup some fields in a database for those values and then on the page load set those values on the page load. Pretty trivial from a 'how to'. Which your question shows that you 'get'.
Now unless you are using an Access Database :-), I don't think you have to worry about the performance hit. But if truly concerned, put some caching logic on those values so you only have to hit the database once. Though, be aware this will store the values in memory on the server, so if you are working with a very minimal hardware this could be an issue as well.
I have read several other posts here, so i get the idea on the pro vs. cons, especially having full control over the rendered html code etc. (in MVC).
My question is regarding the UI controls: In MVC, i will have to write all UI controls myself (or the html equivalent). Now is that not going to be very difficult?
The reason why these 3rd party vendors for asp.net are there is just because of the fact that it is difficult to write UI controls for ASP.NET all by ourselves, and be able to target to all web browsers, and also that we are better off concentrating our time on the business logic rather than spending the whole lot of time writing the UI controls HTML code ourselves.
I understand that this feature gets us the full control over the final html, but is it not counter-productive to do this UI bit ourselves. If it was so easy to write them ourselves, how come these 3-rd party vendors are all living now. We could have done this all by ourselves all these years of WebForms days.
I am sure i am missing something here or being a little stupid, but please enlighten me as to what i am missing in specific regard to the UI bit being written by ourselves.
Just because i get full control over the program by writing in IL code, do we go and do that? We still use C# and things like that - So that theory of "having full control over html" - i am not bought into that idea.
Please help in getting my head around this UI bit.
Other things i understand, about the separation of concern, TDD based development possible with MVC etc.
But why would i go around writing the UI controls all by myself - it is a bit a work isn't it?
The thing is:
If you want to master in web development you have to master HTML + CSS + Javascript
And with WebForms you have to learn the WebForms way to do it, but with MVC you have the power of .Net with the freedom to generate the HTML + CSS + Javascript you want.
Here's a new rant on the subject http://www.charliedigital.com/PermaLink,guid,6dcb0333-9d70-40c7-975b-0ff4011c4661.aspx
Problem is, ASP.NET MVC is much younger product than ASP.NET. For many years 3rd party companies have been developing TONS of reusable components, and I believe that it is only a matter of time before comparable set of controls will be available for ASP.NET MVC.
If you really need very rich GUI with 3rd party controls, and you can't rewrite them in acceptable time - stick with asp.net. Altough in my opinion, MVC gives you tons of power it wouldn't be wise to spend much more time rewriting controls than you can save. If you can live without controls, and like MVC concepts - use MVC, and you'll most certainly see 3rd party solutions as soon as they'll there is growing market (maybe thay've already noticed that, I don't know) for mvc extensions.
I believe that the UI and the user experience are vital to the success of a web app. Making the page intuitive and easy to use, minimizing the amount of navigation the user has to do to get the job done, and providing effective feedback and interactivity can make all the difference between a site that users want to use and one that they avoid.
If you are trying to attract users on a public website, a pleasing appearance and excellent usability are key to building repeat visits.
If you are writing an intranet app to be used by hundreds or thousands of employees all day long -- as I mostly do -- making the UI efficient and easy to use really means a lot to your users.
So, I wouldn't downplay the importance of the UI. It isn't a nuisance. It's a key part of the user experience. I suggest that a web developer should embrace whatever tools and strategies that will get the job done. That often means coding the UI controls yourself. Or working with a teammate who likes doing that part of the work.
I recently refactored a very complex website using ASP.NET + handworked javascript to MVC + jQuery. The complexity of the code was reduced by 50%-75% and became much more testable. I replaced all the complex webcontrols I had to write (with a steep learning curve I had to overcome) with very simple HtmlHelper methods.
Don't forget, when you use custom webcontrols, you are given a very static UI by the control developer. With raw HTML, you can take advantage of styles and ui developed by the whole web industry.
Increased simplicity, decreased development time, testability, flexibility in UI... I don't want to go back.
You also have to remember that ASP.NET MVC is just the first release. I don't think there is intrinsically any reason why you couldn't have the equivalent of server controls to enable certain tasks - remember, there are many server controls that don't generate any mark-up (such as the Repeater, PlaceHolder, ListView). These type of controls could be useful in a future MVC setting, I think.
I believe that ASP.net came around when lots of developers were still used to doing desktop applications and just beginning web development. AT that point in time abstracting the details of the web with controls and post backs was a great way to get people started. At that point we weren't trying to perfect the web, we just wanted to get on it!
Now that the web has matured and we've all slowly learned about html, css, javascript and the likes we want to optimize our websites for our own needs and we don't want to depend on ASP.net Forms controls to control the fine details of our websites.
In summary, I think this is about the natural evolution of many developers from the desktop to the web
I for one, am very thankful that you cannot use ASP.NET controls in MVC.
Controls, as many have already pointed out, are just server side blocks of code that render HTML and javascript on your behalf. Things like a datagrid are great, until someone asks you to make a slight modification, like having a delete confirmation alert, and then it seems impossible to do certain tasks.
The good news is that there are very powerful jQuery tools written to help you. jQgrid is a great grid replacement that does WAY more than the ASP.NET grid...
http://www.trirand.com/blog/
jsTree is a treeview that is fantastic. Again with the jQuery....
http://www.jstree.com/
And the truth is that most things you can do with razor, HTML, javascript and CSS. It's so simple that it's just stupid.
It's hard for people like myself who were web forms developers to grasp MVC and why you should use it because it's so simple. It's difficult to let go of the complexity of conventional ASP.NET. But it feels so good when you do.
And don't mix web forms with MVC. You can do it, but you will wish you hadn't.
Here is the key thing that I think you are missing. When ASP.NET is no longer the MS way of doing things...you will eventually be forced to move on and do something else. I have programmed in perl, ASP classic, then ColdFusion, then PHP, then ASP.NET web forms, then ASP.NET MVC...the only thing that they all have in common is the underlying database, design patterns, best practices for a given set of technology AND...HTML, JavaScript, CSS, and Photoshop.
No one is asking you to learn MVC. No one is telling you to not use WebForms. However, complaining that you have to write a raw UI is not going to get you very far in this industry. You should be learning something new every day...and it sounds like some time spent on HTML and CSS would be a great place to start your focus!
The biggest problem you have with relying on third party controls is when a client asks you to do something that the third party controls don't cover. If you can't replicate their complexity plus the added feature request on your own you are skirting a possible failure in your professional livelihood! You will need to know how to do it all...eventually!
I generally suggest that you embrace new technologies. You don't have to use them...but you should at least know how. This way you will know what the best tool is for any given project.
I've been wondering - what's an equivalent of 'control' from webforms in asp.net mvc? It's not a partial view for sure. What else it can be? Controller + partial views via partial requests?
Maybe i'm dumb, blind or both, but i haven't seen any 'control' for asp.net mvc. Just a lot of code snippets to accomplish one specific thing or another.
I believe that asp.net mvc is quite unfriendly with rapid development. Only way out of this problem - a lot of open source code (like MvcContrib), tutorials, sample applications & most important - slightly smarter developers.
You do not have to replace Webforms controls with something else from MVC. Just mix them - http://www.hanselman.com/blog/PlugInHybridsASPNETWebFormsAndASPMVCAndASPNETDynamicDataSideBySide.aspx
Well, I was also wondering how to use 3rd party controls in ASP.NET MVC. Obviously, and contrary to some answers here, it had to be possible.
As much time has passed since the question was asked, the industry has evolved. So I've searched and found (but havent' yet tested) solutions such as Telerik Extensions for ASP.NET MVC .
I'm posting this answer here mainly to support other MVC newbees such as myself - Just Google
"asp.net mvc" controls
I need a forms technology similar to MS InfoPath or Adobe LiveCycle Forms ES in that it has an XML data structure, is compatible with ASP.NET, renders in a browser, and is easily configurable by non technical office worker types. TurboTax Online is a good example of the type of functionality I have in mind.
The missing piece that I have not yet a solution for is that it be able to operate like a wizard such that responses to certain steps dynamically with AJAX or Flash/Silverlight or some kind of RIA either prompt or hide or alter subsequent parts of the form. It needs to be able to save all results or partial results to persistent form.
This would be easy to program the functionality but need a technology that can create / generate these forms and be able to set the rules in some sort of easily configurable way - the same way an office worker can create a form with InfoPath at least with perhaps a workflow style tool to set the ruls and flow of the form.
Was there a reason you didn't investigate Adobe LiveCycle ES2 any further?
It seems to be a good fit for your requirements, and does have a wizard like feature called Form Guides. You can hide/show sections based on user input, and have form events trigger calls to web services.
Given when you posted this, Guides may not have yet been implemented in LiveCycle - might be worth looking at again if this is still relevant for you.
I’m new to .net, though I’ve been writing in classic asp for years. I know it’s time to make the change, but I can’t stand how bloated the HTML becomes.
For example, a simple menu using a web.sitemap and adds over 100 lines of JavaScript and HTML. A simple form with server-side validation adds in masses of ugly JavaScript. And a basic table of data using GridView adds in a ViewState that makes my eyes water.
Call me a purest, though I don’t like sending data to the browser unless it’s needed. And I don’t need a form-riddled menu when a simple unordered list of links will suffice.
So, set in my ways, am I destined to forgo the benefits of the Framework entirely by insisting on writing my own, cleaner code for everything? Or am I missing the point?
As a brief aside I’m a big fan of Campaign Monitor, a newsletter distribution company. They’ve written an elegant and comprehensive user-interface in .net without a single ViewState or bizarre .net-mangeled ID reference. Even the Sign Up form on their website (/signup.aspx) is as clean as a whistle. What’s their secret?
I hope I not the only one. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Try ASP.NET MVC or one of the other MVC web frameworks for .NET
If your GridView doesn't need it, then turn ViewState off for it.
Also, please edit your question to say what version of .NET you're using. Some of this gets better, and some does not. You might also want to try VS2010 beta 1, and complain about anything it doesn't fix.
Another idea would be to go on treating ASP.NET like it's classic ASP. Do it exactly the way you're used to, but do it with the idea in mind that there's about 10 years of development work that's gone into solving some of the problems of classic ASP. Once you actually hit one of those problems, find out if ASP.NET has solved it, and how.
For instance, I have a hard time believing you enjoy writing FOR loops to generate table rows. If you get tired of that, learn to use a Repeater control, or a DataList control, or even the old DataGrid control. If you turn ViewState off on those, I think you may find the generated HTML to be acceptable, and you'll find it a lot easier to generate tables and other structures that repeat based on repeating data.
You can opt-out of much of that bloat by not using all the out-of-the-box controls that come with it but I prefer the MVC route that activa suggested
Here is my list:
Keep the use of asp controls to minimum
Turn off Viewstate when it's not need
If you don't want the JavaScript associated with Client Side Validation (with ASP.NET Validation) set the EnableClientScript to False
Use asp:literal instead of asp:Label
Yeah it seems to be that everyone is bashing webforms at the minute for the reasons you have outlined above. HTML heavy Controls, ViewState, no control over ClientIDs all seem to cause an issue with people.
However let is be said that you can use asp.net (webforms) and produce some decent applications.
Control of html is yours through httpModules and httpHandlers and some of the issues mentioned above are fixed in asp.net 4.0
I just listened to a great podcast comparing MVC and webforms. Its in the area you are asking about. Also check out this blogpost by a dotNetNuke regarding the good asp.net code and why people should take a breath before converting everything to mvc.
Having said that I've tried Asp.net MVC and it is awesome. I'd probably look at dotNetNukes code to as its a mature asp.net product.
Also, when you do want to use these newfangled server controls, check out the css friendly control adapters. They clean up much of the bloat.
For client IDs the key thing to remember is to let the framework handle them. If you need to get an element on the client side, remember to emit the control's ClientID property into your script.
I've been using a template system and am very happy with it. Basically write an http handler for .html files and put tokens in the html files that regex could find in one sweep and inject any stuff. (google template c# for more info).
I tried some of the supposedly cool new features of ASP.NET for a little while. I also didn't like most of them. I felt constrained to work within the limitations of the common paradigms Microsoft had dreamed, even though I new how easy it would be to produce the HTML and JavaScript myself to do specifically what I wanted to do without having to learn how to jump through the hoops of so many new Microsoft-specific idiosyncrasies.
Anyway, I stopped using the parts of ASP.NET I didn't like on new code I've been writing lately. When I first started using ASP.NET, nothing in the MSDN documentation jumped out at me about how to avoid such complications, so I posted a couple "Hello, World" at http://www.agalltyr.com/rawaspdotnet.html to help spread the heretical word. I couldn't care less if it's the latest cool technology or the recommended technique. It's a reliable and reasonably efficient tool I can use to do my work.
Oh, and I'm not in the mood to learn ASP.NET MVC either. That's just more idiosyncrasies. Give me a language (C#) and a framework (.NET), and I'll design my own abstraction, thank you.