Short story: I frequently have to work on many different, rather small, web pages.
Most of them are layouted with pure CSS.
My Problem:
My job is to work on the code itself, on the functionality of the pages, not on the layout. However, due to the changes I make, I am often forced to make slight layout modifications and that soaks up my time like a black hole.
I end up spending as much as 10 times as long to do the slightest layout modifications as it takes me to add or rewrite routines.
We have a designer as well but it is just impossible to wait for him to redo layouts for every change I make (and often enough I have to change things multiple times).
So what I've searched for is a super basic and simple CSS WYSIWYG editor that isn't a complicated professional design tool. After trying a few tools I gave up, going back to editing by hand. In particular, the behavior of nested layout boxes just freaks me out every time.
Does anyone have some hints on this?
I'd appreciate any help,
Thank you
Two thoughts:
1) Adopt more of an agile process
The visual design (layout) and logic design should be built in tandem rather than one after the other. As you've found out, modifying things after the fact can be a real pain.
2) Adopt a CSS framework/OOCSS methods/Component Library
The idea behind all 3 of those is to create reusable CSS that follows a predictable structure. This takes a lot more up-front work, but results in a code base that should be a lot easier to maintain going forward.
twitter bootstrap
http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/
looks really good from first impressions.
My rails expert keeps raving about it and I'm planning on trying it. Obviously free 'n all.
Basically we've felt your pain with this issue!
Bootstrap is good for real developers, a lot of it is basic layout via css tags and I think it'll make a lot of sense to you.
Even if it doesn't meet all your needs, it might be a great place to start with, as a standard for a development team. As much as developers often dislike being templated ;)
The actual direct github site is: https://github.com/twbs/bootstrap
Is it used much? Currently?...
Github Stats:
Watcher: 8682
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Looks good! :)
I'm also a big fan of HAML - Ruby + HTML without the angle brackets(and more)!
... not sure if this will help, but yahoo grid builder works well for me. Of course there is a catch. The css selectors it generates are not very semantic, so you might have to do some re-factoring of them from withing the generated html page.
Github Stats: (for Blueprint suggested by Daniel below)
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I'm trying to figure out why I would use a grid system. I have read some but I just don't get it. I'm used to just putting stuff in html on a page and beind done with it but I have a new project and would like to use a grid because apparently it is a best practice.
I read in one article referenced in another SO question and it said that grid design was in all sorts of development, even application form design. That made me think of things like snap to grid, etc. and I didn't know if the grid in the web design sphere was the same. I was hoping someone could give me a brief but not overly complicated view and not a link to Google which I have used already.
Thank you for any help.
EDIT: I found this website the easiest: http://www.zurb.com/playground/css-grid-builder but again, what do I do with 12 columns? Is everything in a column "smashed" to fit in a column? that doesn't make sense to me.
EDIT: I read the grid 960 tutorial below and was feeling better but at the end it says:
You can just as well use the concepts of Grid 960 in the production code, but it is not recommend sticking with a framework all the way through production. CSS frameworks are just like any tool, they have their uses. With that in mind, go forth and prototype!
I'm not trying to take this out of context but if I don't use it in production, what's the point? I understand the need for prototyping but if I like the prototype why not use the 960 grid? I may not understand the comment. Thanks.
EDIT:
Is the 960 system for production?
I think you're too focused on thinking about grids as applied to web and applications, and need to do a little research about the underlying reasons why grids can be useful for any form of graphic and information design, whether pixels on a screen or hand-drawn ink on paper.
I would recommend you take a step back from the computer, forget about 960, divs, snap-to-grid, and HTML entirely for a bit, and if possible flick through a few graphic design books and magazines and do a bit of doodling. Or even just pick up a newspaper and have a think about what underlying grids they use (how many columns are there, are they the same width, do grids differ across pages or sections, which elements stick to the grid, which diverge from it?).
The Grid System has a good list of resources.
Then you should be in a better position to think about how grids in general might be useful for your projects, and whether a particular model such as the 960 grid might be useful.
When i design any user interface/web design i don't pay attention to a grid layout until i start to have my main elements constructed. once that is done i implement a grid to flow nicely with those main elements for easy visual scanning
Having recently become a convert to Grid Layouts, I find myself looking at more and more sites' code and seeing that grids are still grossly under-represented.
While I accept that grids might not always be the only right solution for every web design situation, I think that they are a tool that should be seeing higher rates of adoption than they currently enjoy.
I think if I'd known more about the design approach earlier, I would have saved a considerable amount of time and effort. But Grids don't seem to have the sort of exposure that, say, CSS standards do. Why should that be? Is it even a problem that some people might be missing out on a design approach that could potentially be a better solution to a problem they're working on?
The "Grid Layouts" you speak of, are nothing "special". What you are actually talking about, are "CSS frameworks". These "Grid Layouts" should still be using CSS Standard
You also did not mention the most popular CSS Grid Framework - YUI Grids CSS
I think the reason people normally don't use a framework, is that they don't want to be locked into something with limited customization. Also a big reason is that there is no guaranty that the framework will be around forever, and once it is gone, your knowledge with that framework is useless.
There is also some Criticism of CSS Frameworks on Wikipedia:
Lack of flexibility outside the limitations of the framework
Bloated source code
Additional HTTP requests for multiple files
Lack of substantial additional features beyond what is already available with CSS
Also I think that most web developers just like to write there own HTML/CSS.
I'm going to preface this by saying I personally have no strong feelings about grid-based layouts one way or the other. However, the reason other people may not want to dig into them is that it's a major time investment. For example, if you look over the docs and tutorials for Blueprint, it's clear that figuring out how to use it and applying it effectively for one simple project is going to cost you at least an afternoon, and that's assuming everything works exactly the way the docs say it will. If everything doesn't do that, you could be looking at several days of Googling and forum posting. Nothing against Blueprint or grid-based layouts. It's just the nature of these things.
So for all that risk and effort, here's the payoff: every element in your layout lines up on a grid.
The debate over whether that's worth the effort could go on for years. I'm not going to touch that one. Let's just say it's debatable.
I don't like them. The 960 grid sites don't work well on the iPhone/iPod Touch. And they're terrible on my Blackberry. I prefer a fluid layout that works well on smaller screens.
I don't mind if they show up as 960 on computers, but for Pete's sake, serve me something fluid on mobile. If everyone used this, I'd be happy.
I think we don't see grid layout to be so popular because to use any CSS framework you already need to know CSS on decent level, in case anything goes wrong, or because you gonna need to style your elements anyway.
So the question that asked why somebody who already decently know CSS will start using framework.
I think the best way to use framework is to rip some parts of it (like form styling) and use it with your own developed things.
Is there anything that CSS Frameworks give that its not easy to make yourself?
The main use I have for CSS frameworks is that they tend to force you to think about how you're going to organise you code rather than provide you with indispensable tools for your day to day tasks.
For that reason, I'm a fan of boilerplate rather than things like blueprint as boilerplate tends to focus on how you structure your css stylesheets and imports rather than providing you with a collection of semantically confusing helper classes.
They are simply a convenience and as such are good for things like wireframing and rapid prototyping. They are probably also a good way to learn CSS layout aswell if you can familiarise yourself with the layout code.
What I don't like about CSS frameworks is that they encourage the use of non-semantic class names and are a bit heavy handed for a simpler designs. I still think it's very important to understand how CSS layout works and not to just rely on the frameworks because you'd be limiting your creativity and what you could achieve. Sometimes reading CSS files from the csszengarden site can teach you things you weren't sure of how to achieve.
For wireframing this is the most promising CSS framework I've seen:
http://designinfluences.com/fluid960gs/
I think that all depends on your own knowledge and the project. If you have a lot of small business clients, or for other reasons makes a lot of similar designs, I think it saves some time to use css frameworks. And you save time for browser bugfixing, but you should always test anyways.
But if your CSS skills are good, you know the most common IE bugs and how to hack them, I dont see any need of using a framework in most cases.
A reset stylesheet of some description is a worthwhile starting point.
For example:
http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/reset/
IE6 compatibility.
given that you are already familiar with one particular framework, it's easier and quicker to do certain common grid layouts. You might want to learn and try to stick with a framework if you are doing a lot of CSS.
Blueprint CSS is the CSS framework I prefer.
Yes, testing testing and more testing. Do you have time to test and debug your code in all browsers? If you have it's the best to write your own code. If you need quick solution you can use some framework. I wrote one post about this subject: http://www.vcarrer.com/2008/08/when-to-use-css-framework.html
It depends on the framework and your end-goal.
A lot of times they can work as guides with pre-defined templates to aid your development effort. But other times you just want your page to look nicer and not have to deal with actual work on CSS files. In the latter, you can skip the "make yourself" part altogether, and invest more effort into other parts of your project.
Take Skeleton and Tacit CSS frameworks for example. Both are pretty much minimal frameworks. The first is more centered on providing easy to use and adapt the boilerplate code and comes with a moderate amount of utility. Tacit on the other hand is a CSS framework for dummies, for people who, for example, have no interest in working with CSS but still want to get a nicer display look than the default CSS-less HTML display, and they want this out-of-the-box, not having to work with CSS classes.
i think that compatibility of any kind is best achieved when we band together, whether it be using CSS or Javascript frameworks, there's bound to be more chance that bugs will get fixed and wishes will get granted. there's also the chance that similar interfaces reduce the amount of training required for new users of your site.
I would never, ever use a CSS framework. They don't make anything faster or easier, increase code bloat and make debugging or testing much harder. If I do use a CSS framework to start with, it looks like this:
body {}
In what way would you ever need more than that? the baseline starting point should always be what the browser displays by default, nothing more.
Reset CSS stylesheets cause the same problems.
eg: http://withoutsubstance.blogspot.com/2008/09/why-you-should-never-ever-ever-use.html
I've worked with 960 a bit and found it's great for prototyping but I'm not a fan of putting it into production. I find the use of float makes my head hurt a little.
There's a common misconception that frameworks == bloat and another that a particular implementation of a framework represents the definition. A framework is just a tool. Here's an analogy: If you need a spanner to fix your car, you shouldn't throw away your screwdriver set.
If you've found that the frameworks you've looked at aren't suitable to the task at hand, you shouldn't write them off. You can easily make your own or use frameworks when they suit your needs.
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Reading on another forum I've came across the world of CSS Frameworks. The one I've been specifically looking at is BluePrint. I was wondering if anyone else had come across CSS frameworks, suggest which is the best and if they are worth the effort?
CSS 'frameworks' are completely missing the point.
CSS is not like JavaScript, where you can include a base library/framework and then call functions and objects from it to do higher-level work. All a CSS framework can give you is declarative rules: some default browser-rule-reset stuff, some class styles to be forced to author your page to, and layout rules using 'float' and 'clear'. You can write that in a few lines of CSS yourself rather than pulling in the bloat of a hundred framework rules.
The 'grid layout' stuff in particular goes back to the bad old days of mixing your presentation into your markup. 'div class="span-24"' is no better than a table, you'll have to go back in there and change the markup to affect the layout. And all the frameworks I've seen are based around fixed-pixel floated boxes, making it impossible to create a liquid layout accessible on a wide range of window sizes.
It's backwards authoring, of use only for someone too scared to write a CSS rule.
So, nobody's responded to this question yet (although I've seen a few upvotes), so I am going to at least attempt to tackle the second question in this prompt.
CSS Frameworks are great; like any other framework, they reduce development time and let you get working immediately on site-specific design and CSS. They think about hard decisions so you don't have to.
Unfortunately, there are two downsides to using a framework (in general):
The framework dictates the overall structure and mechanics of your CSS code. Now, I'm not talking about a CSS reset (these are useful in their own right, but they are not true frameworks); I'm talking about an honest to good framework, that has already made the decisions about what semantic tags you are going to be using in your document, etc. As such, you are made dependent on the framework, and when there is a bug in the framework, you will most commonly have to fix it yourself.
Frameworks are not an excuse for being oblivious to cross-browser/advanced CSS issues. You will invariably run into them, just as you would working with a PHP or JavaScript framework. And you need to know how to deal with them. There is a common saying that you should write your own framework first, before using someone else's.
Taking a quick peek at Blueprint, I would not really call it a framework; maybe a reset with a few extra goodies on top.
I've looked at BluePrint and a few others and the only CSS 'framework' I'd recommend is YUI Grids
Pros:
Written by one of the best frontend engineers out there (IMO) (Nate Koechley)
Very small. 4KB
Very flexible (1000 different layouts)
Supports fluid-width (100%) layouts as well as preset fixed-width layouts at 750px, 950px, and 974px, and the ability to easily customize to any number.
Supports easy customization of the width for fixed-width layouts.
Template columns are source-order independent, so you can put your most important content first in the markup layer for improved accessibility and search engine optimization (SEO).
Self-clearing footer. No matter which column is longer, the footer stays at the bottom.
Layouts less than 100% are automatically centered.
Somewhat semantic classnames (better than top, left, right, etc)
Cons:
Lots of extra markup compared to hand-written HTML and CSS
Takes some learning to figure out how to do complex layouts
As other have posted, there are no real 'frameworks' for CSS. Reset stylesheets help a lot with layout too. I usually stick with a reset stylesheet and go from there. But if you don't have a lot of CSS experience YUI Grids could save you some time.
Compass is an actual CSS framework in the sense that it gives you not only templates (both YUI and blueprint), but also reusable constructs and higher-level declarations while still giving you familiar CSS syntax.
Take the time to study and understand (really understand!) a few css frameworks such as BluePrint and YUI, and css resets like Eric Meyer's. Then, take the time to put together your own reset and/or framework based on your work methods and the kind of sites you build.
Personally, I use most of the Eric Meyer reset with some classes and resets of my own, plus a few ideas from BluePrint and YUI.
I recently watched Eric Meyer give a presentation on CSS Frameworks in which he asked the question: "so which one is the right one for me?" He then answered the question by showing a blank slide. His point was, that there are certainly some useful concepts built into most resets and frameworks, but the one that will suit you the best is the one that you write for yourself (it's worth the effort).
Why use css 'frameworks'?
If you are pressured for time.
If you do not know css, and don't
know someone who can write it for
you.
If you are not overly precious about
standards etc.
I know programmers who have been really happy to use blueprint or 960, as it allows them to put together a layout on their own, without turning to a front-end developer. This is ideal for personal projects, or startups with limited resources.
If you have decent knowledge of CSS already, then presumably you have a decent library of stock layouts already, so you clearly won't need a framework.
However, if you're a beginner and just need to get something up and running, then you might turn to a framework, as it makes basic layout much simpler, and tackling browser compatibility also.
Having said all that, many frameworks out of the box do make use of some horrible class names etc. I know of some websites that have taken a framework as a starting point and then customised it with their own class and id tags. But clearly there's a bit of work involved in that rewrite too. Using something like Compass, as mentioned above, does help to get around that.
So, CSS frameworks - they can save you time, at the cost of semantics. They might also hurt your knowledge of CSS, but that is more up to how much you invest in learning the subject in general. Whether you make use of them is up to you.
You'd have to ask yourself how effective the available frameworks are at solving your problems. Do they meet your requirements?
By using a framework, you can set some rules or details at the pixel level and devote the rest of your time to implementing and producing. It's a massive productivity boost. If you find yourself spending time adjusting things by a few pixels late in the project (micro managing the design), it's a sign that a framework can be useful.
Tip #17 in The Pragmatic Programmer says: "Program close to the problem domain". Using a layer of abstraction can get you closer to solving the real problems of layout. For example: you might be able to concentrate of enhancing the user experience with the extra time you have rather than minor adjustments of pixels.
This is not to say you must sacrifice quality for quantity. It's about efficiency.
On a recent project, I made my own framework because we had very limited resources and the popular frameworks didn't do what I wanted. Then, I set up the design team's PSDs to snap to the same grid I deployed.
A framework doesn't have to be any particular implementation of CSS. It doesn't have to be something bloated you downloaded from the interweb or something implementing outdated ideas. It's just a technique for getting a job done. I wouldn't be surprised if some coders already have their own frameworks and don't even know it. In fact, if you consider the DOM as a set of default elements you extend with CSS, then that's a framework by definition.
I actually spent a good portion of the last 24 hours investigating this on my own, heh. My conclusion was that a nice reset (I used YUI Reset), and maybe something else to set baseline stuff (YUI fonts was worthwhile in my case; maybe the "extra goodies" of BluePrint would be in yours) is a good idea. But, a "framework"---which is generally something like YUI grids---is too restrictive, forcing you to use their class names, ids, etc. and rarely fitting into your site like hand-made CSS would.
So in short: resets seem pretty nice; it's good to eliminate all the variation in e.g. margin-vs-padding for lists, or paragraph spacing, or whatever. But that's as far as I would take it.
i haven't used it yes, but i think emastic may be a good alternative worth a check. it it is similar to blueprint in scope, but also supports elastic layouts (hence the name) and you can specify values in px, em or %, and even mix them.
Compass I think is amazing. Make sure you see the screencast.
I am using 960.gs for a few websites and find it very simple and easy and worth the effort. Saves me a lot of work on layout. Make sure to check the custom CSS generator which goes away with the fixed width of 960 pixels.
I think that this video presentation by Site Point CEO Kevin Yank will answer your question. I really recommend to watch it.
Compass lets you rename your framework's classes and ids with your own semantic names, so you might want to check it out. It also provides access to stuff you just don't get with plain-vanilla CSS such as mixins.
I'm astounded by so-called "CSS experts" who criticize these tools without really having digged in and used them. Are they essential? No. If you like your own framework (you do have one of your own, right? A CSS framework is just a carefully defined library--everyone should be using one) then by all means, keep on using it. No one is forcing you to use other frameworks and I don't see people who are using frameworks telling CSS purists that they are "doing it wrong."
Criticizing frameworks from such a standpoint just reveals an insecurity as well as an ignorance. For example, the notion is laughable that a person would use a tool like Compass without knowing CSS. You realize, right, that a framework generally doesn't write all your CSS for you? You can still break out and write your own CSS within the context of most frameworks. In fact, if you don't know CSS you might get frustrated quickly.
For myself, I appreciate having a framework because it is already documented, tested by hundreds of other users, and I can apply my own classes and ids via Compass. If I need something that the framework isn't suitable for, then I'll code my own.
Matt Raible of AppFuse fame had a CSS Framework contest a while back to develop CSS Frameworks for AppFuse. The results are published here. There are a few variations and I have used some myself because I use AppFuse and find them very good.
I should add that these CSS Frameworks work well because they are used in themed applications. That is, if you stick to the rules then switching from one to the next is as simple as changing one value in a properties file.
I have used BluePrint with much success on a site (I could mention the site here but I am sure the post would be marked as spam!). I am not sure if I will use it in the future though because one of the ideas of CSS i thought was to not have layout logic hard coded. You shouldn't have css elements called span-24 and span-12 to define the layout but something like searchBox and mainContent. At least thats how I see it.
Good link I found : Top 12 CSS Frameworks and How to Understand Them
Here is my blog post about CSS Frameworks When to use CSS framework?
The only way I know of to use a CSS framework and retain semantic markup is to use a higher-level abstraction. At the moment, Compass is the only one I'm aware of that's mature enough to use, but Nicole Sullivan seems to be doing some interesting stuff with her "Object-Oriented CSS" project.
I find Compass' clever use of Sass mixins to be brilliant, and a big step toward the Holy Grail of maintainable semantic markup. I don't think I'd want to use a framework like Blueprint or YUI without an abstraction such as Compass to keep presentation classes out of the markup.
BTW, there's a nice-looking CSS framework called Elastic that looks good enough that I'm considering adding it to Compass.
I believe CSS is about simplicity. The goal is to have one or two places to check when you're referencing between the HTML and your stylesheet. Adding more lines, and especially lines that you did not write and are probably not that familiar with, will exponentially increase the complexity thereby volatility of the CSS code.
I would suggest your layouts as you write them and develop a generic template system from that. While I love making CSS more modular, often and depending on the design, your CSS may be very case-specific and not modular at all.
I've used Blueprint on a few one-off sites and it definitely saved time, primarily in cross-browser testing.
It definitely sucks adding presentation code to your markup, although on the bright side it's readable. While I love the concept of "you can redesign without touching the markup", if you're producing a site where that really isn't going to happen anyways and you just need it done yesterday, Blueprint is something to look at.
There are also tradeoffs in what types of layouts it can feasibly create though. If you wireframe the site from the start on a strict grid, it will be much easier to transpose into the framework with a minimum of fuss.
I have used BluePrint and YUI but I always get frustrated with some of the names they give their id and classes.
To each their own, but I prefer doing things from scratch, but after a while you develop a process in which you will use your previous work and apply it to new projects and just make some tweaks to make the web site look the way you would like it to.
Be sure to use a good naming convention, just in case someone else down the road comes in to edit the css, then they will have a good idea what each style name is referring to.
Craig,
Compass is what you're looking for: it allows you to rename your Blueprint CSS classes like "span-24" with your own names. It also expands CSS functionality with variables and mixins. Truly, those that prematurely judge frameworks without having checked out Compass are "missing the point." It's sort of like those folks who told us years ago that we are missing the point by using CSS instead of HTML tables for our layouts.
-Matt
check out http://www.ez-css.org/. one of easiest and lightest css framework to work on. :)
Take a look to this demo:
http://www.richstyle.org/demo-web.php
This framework is based on idea that "HTML tags should be enough".
I think re-usability is the most important factor for choosing a software component, including a web framework.
For web frameworks developers, the more you commit to standards, the more you guarantee re-usability.