At the moment I am starting to learn Silverlight. I have expriences in ASP.NET and like the concepts of "Masterpages. Does Silverlight provides a similar concept ? I have read a little bit about the Silverlight Navigation Framework. Is this a good replacement for "Masterpages" ?
Makes it sense to combine ASP.NET and HTML (with Javascript) with Silverlight or is it more recommandable to design and write pure Silverlight applications ? Mybe in the ner future I will start to develop an intranet (business) application which will have many and complex user interaction (it should behave like a windows client applicion). I think Silverlight is the better choice than ASP.NET !? Makes it sense also to start to use/learn the WCF RIA Services immediatly ?
Are there good (VS) templates to start with Silverlight or which are a good basis / starting point for a new Silverlight application ? Unfortunately I am missing "Starter kits" on http://www.silverlight.net like the starter kits on www.asp.net !
Thanks in advance for your hints.
Silverlight and ASP.Net are light years apart technology wise, Silverlight is closer to Winforms programming than it is to ASP.net, event though it can be hosted inside an ASP.Net page.
To achieve "masterpage" type functionality, you can have a base control or page that you can inherit everything else from. Or you can have a page which acts as a shell and you can swap views in and out depending on the user's actions.
If you are writing an app from scratch, you can do the whole thing in silverlight. You can navigate from one silverlight control (hosted in an aspx page) to another aspx page (with silverlight controls in it), but there is a performance overhead when transitioning between aspx pages (they are web pages and need to be served). You should look to eliminate separate aspx pages if possible, and create it as one big silverlight application - if your application's functionality is all rolled into one application (not spread amongst aspx pages) then you can make the most of Silverlight's Out Of Browser feature.
However you should only consider silverlight if you are build web apps or interactive/streaming stuff. If your pages are going to be largely static (i.e. presenting product catalogs, or a site where the user just drills through from one page to another) then using silverlight would be overkill, you would be better off sticking with ASP.Net or ASP.Net MVC.
Masterpages does Silverlight provide a similar concept ?
Not directly but it does provide a variety of ways to acheive the goals of Masterpages. The navigation framework is mostly the sort of thing you would need to achieve the typical reason to use Masterpages.
However its also possible to achieve "masterpage" functionality more generally by creating a UserControl that has ContentControl instances at points where in ASP.NET masterpages you would have used a asp:contentplaceholder. These content controls would be bound to custom properties added to the UserControl. This completed UserControl can then be used as the "LayoutRoot" of another UserControl or Page. Note this does not require inheritence from the "master".
Does a combined ASP.NET and Silverlight app make sense?
Well thats a tricky one the answer really is, "It depends". There are way to many factors to give this a true answer. Factors:-
Is this a public app or an internal app?
How important are including rich UI features?
First time Silverlight dev will cost you, is your project able to absorbe that?
What client platforms do you need to support?
How might ASP.NET-MVC + appropriate use of JQuery size up against your requirements?
Probably others I haven't thought of yet
Is Silverlight is the better choice than ASP.NET when there are many and complex user interactions?
The phrase "complex user interactions" could mean a couple of things? Do mean complex to deliver with HTML and Javascript but simple for the user? Or is this a sophisticated app aimed at an expert user?
In either case its likely that Silverlight will start to come into its own here.
Does make it sense also to start to use/learn the WCF RIA Services immediately?
Yet again the answer depends of the type of application you have in mind. If its line of business app where data is searched, edited and reported on then (assuming you have decided to develop in Silverlight at all) definitely you should be looking at WCF RIA Services as well as the parts of PRISM that think are appropriate.
Other types of apps may not benefit from WCF RIA Services.
Are there good (VS) templates to start with Silverlight or which are a good basis / starting point for a new Silverlight application ?
There are no start kits at present. However I think you will find what you need amoung the various demos and tutorials on the silverlight learning site.
I've particular found the videos useful. If you decide to go Silverlight its well worth clearing a day or two to got through the relevent ones.
These are a lot of questions at once.
Yes, the Navigation Framework functionality is pretty much equivalent to the Master Pages concept. Even to the point that it is tracked in the URL when users navigate, so they can use the back and forward button of their browsers.
If you want to do a stand-alone Silverlight application or a hybrid pretty much depends on your requirements and on the type of application you want to develop. If it's a Line of Business application, you might be doing fine with Silverlight alone.
For a public, content/text-intensive website probably HTML with some silverlight gadgetry here and there might still be preferable.
Related
I have experience in javascript, html(Bronze certified), css(Gold certified), sql and xml(Bronze certified), and now have turned my attention towards server side scripting. I have little experience in php but have no Idea what to choose between MVC and ASP.NET Web Pages. I like all the features that ASP.NET Web Pages(Since I already new a little about server side scripting, so getting started was not that difficult and I know a few basic things.) have like, automatic form authentication among others but I seriously doubt that it can never be by-passed. Still, for safety I use my own algorithms against sql-injection and javascript codes. But, now I am confused what to learn, MVC or ASP.NET Web Pages. All the posts I searched on internet where for new programmers. Since I am not new they are no use to me. So what should I learn MVC OR ASP.NET Web Pages and why?
*English is not my native language, there may be some grammatical mistakes.
You are kind of asking what's the better option, apples or bananas. MVC is a pattern and allows you greater control over what HTML is sent to the browser whereas Web Forms has a great number of pre-made controls that do all the hard work rendering out html to the browser (but often less control of how it is rendered out)
It's also down to preferences, I personally prefer MVC as the unit testing and component nature of it give me great flexibility. Alternatively, using WebForms you can create some things quickly using drag and drop controls.
Hope that gives you a bit of useful info. I'd recommend reading up about both, and seeing which fits into your style of programming and go from there, but there's nothing stopping you learning and using both (just don't use them in the same project, lol)
My company is trying to make an informed decision about how to pursue future development.
We seem to have narrowed down our future internal and external Applications to being web applications. But we are still a bit confused from that point.
There is a large amount of support for Sharepoint here. As I understand it, Sharepoint is basically ASP.NET using MVP.
Others want to use normal ASP.NET using the newer MVC style.
I am also told that these don't easily play well together.
It is looking like Sharepoint (and ASP.NET MVP) is going to be the winner. Before we go that direction, I wanted to ask:
If we choose to base the next 5-10 years of our development efforts off of Sharepoint (ie ASP.NET and MVP) what are we giving up? And is it a big deal or just some "nice to haves" that we are loosing.
(It would have to be a fairly big deal to get management to change direction now.)
Whatever happens, WebForms will turn into a big ugly mess at some point. If you have to use webforms, don't use the postback and page lifycycle model - have aspx pages with presenters for get requests, and have a handler or empty aspx per post. It'll feel a lot more like MVC that way
I would say that what you choose depends heavily upon who your developers are, and what kind of apps you intend to build.
If you build largely crud-like apps that make a lot of use of third party (or your own) custom controls, then staying with Webforms is probably a good idea.
If you build largely "web" style apps with lots of client-side functionality, then MVC is a much better choice.
If you have largely newbie developers, Webforms may be better. If you have more experienced developers, even if they're new to asp.net then MVC may be a better choice.
If you are building very data-centric applications with complex interconnections, then MVC may be a better choice.
There are lots of reasons why you might choose one or the other, and it's always "it depends on...".
Also, MVC and Webforms are not completely incompatible. You can't use them in the same page, but you can use both in the same site. Also, like the comment above says, Sharepoint is not Webforms or MVP per se.. it's kind of it's own thing that is based on webforms. It's very "Webpart" oriented, which is just a way of saying you build lots of custom controls.
I have been a strong proponent of Separation of Concern (SOC) being built into software whether you use MVVM, MVC or MVP all three patterns are quite nice. With this being completely specific to ASP.NET, I would state you should use MVC3.
I have been a .NET developer for years now and have written my MVP pattern that is built on top of StructureMap (lots on my blog about it) and for a while I never saw the benefit of dealing with the changes associated from leaving webforms to goto MVC. However after dealing with ASP.NET for so long I've just had it with ASP.NET webforms errors that are completely out of my control.
The main errors from webforms occur with the ViewState timing out resulting in the generic cryptographic exception and the 2nd is where the ViewState is just truncated by the client or post somehow resulting in legitimate cryptographic errors. With MVC these errors just aren't applicable anymore. With .NET4 I attempted to create a webforms application without ViewState with the new features they added in .NET4 and that completely didn't work which cemented by decision that webforms time is past.
Out of MVC, MVC2 and MVC3 the feature set that comes with the MVC3 and the Razor view-engine is the most robust. You get all of the enhancements that came with MVC2 along with the much cleaner Views that the Razor view engine lets you create, on top of that you get global action filters and the baked jQuery client side templating (I'm 90% sure).
I would also approach MVC very similarly to MVVM where I would have 3 distinct sets of entities, my view models, my domain entities and my physical database models. (The last set may, or may not be the domain entities, I've started to realize trying to make your pure domain entities work with your database layer can be suboptimal at advanced stages)
If you are performing page post-backs to handle events, I would suggest MVP as the Presenter would contain the event handlers for all versions of the view (Different user interfaces such as web pages, iPhone, Android, Windows forms), with a uniform behavior. In other words, you would not need to write control events in a code-behind for every view. At least, they'd do nothing more than call the Presenter's event handler method or raise an event the Presenter handles.
If you are creating web applications and heavily using Ajax for page updates, with one or more web views and a cross-browser JavaScript library, such as jQuery, I would recommend MVC.
So it comes down to how you want to handle page events. MVP & MVC both have separation of concerns. MVP is more server based and easier to add multiple UI's and MVC is more client based, for event handling and more web centric.
From my experience, a strongly enforced MVP pattern has been much better for data centric complex LOB applications.
MVP offers greater seperation as your presenters have no knowledge of web centric concepts.
Code coverage is also increased as you have no conditional code in the views.
We have several apps that where the presenter is used between both web and windows apps.
You presenter referes to a complete abstraction of the view, asp.net MVC relies on abstractions of view dependants (HttpContextBase etc.)
That all said you need to design this into web forms, its not out of the box, but if you do it right first time and have developers that understand it and stick to it you end up with a very clean solution.
there are some solid frameworks out there to support MVP in webforms:
http://www.codeguru.com/csharp/.net/net_general/patterns/article.php/c15173
webformsmvp dot com as well.
I am working towards porting a windows application to web. The windows application is quite rich w.r.t. the form controls, complex validations and user interactivity.
Basic web forms are inadequate to meet these complexities. So I would like to know the best way to still have the richness on the web pages. I have some ideas and would like comments.
Use DHTML & Java Script to mimic complex controls. There are some macro controls available as part of jQueryUI that can be used and some other third party Java Script controls. I'd like suggestions if there is a recommended control library.
Use RIA (preferably Silverlight) wherever rich controls are needed. I'd like to keep this as a last option because it mandates the Silverlight plug-in.
What are other popular / preferred strategies?
If you don't mind a departure from .NET "controls", I'd try Ext JS. It is dual licensed GPL/Commercial so you'll likely have to pay for it, but the components are more robust than Telerik or the other .NET versions.
I would suggest that you also check out the tools from DevExpress (http://www.devexpress.com). I've used both Telerik and DevExpress and ended up going with just the DevExpress tools. Both companies, however, are top-notch and both have tools that can really enhance your UI.
With that being said, I would strongly suggest that you avoid the temptation to just port your fat client UI to the Web. That is, if you are just looking for web controls to take the place of your current Windows controls but otherwise leave the UI intact, you are likely to be disappointed. The web is a different kind of animal and people expect to use it differently. With Ajax, JQuery and the various specialty tools from a company like DevExpress or Telerik you can do amazing things on the web that are the equal of anything you may have done in your current fat client interface but they will be done differently.
Reasons for this advice? First, in my experience Windows UIs migrated to the web feel clumsy and inappropriate. The controls aren't the only thing that changes - the entire windowing and content flow models are different.
Second, if you are deploying to organizations outside of your own, you are likely to find that there is significant resistance to using any kind of plug-in - including Silverlight. We win business all the time because we've stayed pure web.
Third, to the extent that you try to build web apps while not really learning web development ethics and methods, you'll just slow down your eventual evolution to true web development experts.
Anyway - that's my $0.02.
We have had a lot of success with the Telerik controls for ASP.NET.
http://www.telerik.com/products/aspnet-ajax.aspx
They also have a suite of Silverlight controls.
http://www.telerik.com/products/silverlight.aspx
And for ASP.NET MVC.
http://www.telerik.com/products/aspnet-mvc.aspx
They are very easy to use and richly featured. The demos on their site should give you a good feel for the capabilities.
There was an article on Codeproject which covered converting Winforms to ASP.NET
Hope this helps.
One of the common questions asked regarding ASP.NET MVC is why should you use it over ASP.NET Web Forms? The answer generally includes ViewState and clean URLs, amongst others. Towards the end you'll find a blurb about using the right tool for the job and that they serve different purposes. However, I don't believe I've ever seen what those purposes are. So, when would you actually choose ASP.NET MVC over ASP.NET Web Forms, or ASP.NET Web Forms over ASP.NET MVC?
You don't choose ASP.Net MVC over ASP.Net, because ASP.Net MVC still is ASP.Net. You do choose ASP.Net MVC or ASP.Net Web Forms, and there are lots of good reasons to do that:
Easier to get control over your HTML
Easier to do unit testing
Few "Gotchas"
On the other hand, Web Forms do have a few points in their favor:
Easy to put simple CRUD/business apps together extremely fast
Hard to beat ViewState performance in local LAN environment
Easy to learn forms paradigm
The result is that if you're building business apps in a corporate LAN environment (which honestly is still most web developers), Web Forms is really great. In that sense Microsoft really knows their market. But if you're building an app for the public internet, you might want MVC so you can test thoroughly and be sure your pages aren't bloated with unnecessary ViewState or JavaScript data.
Additionally, something that has changed over the last several years is that even many corporate intranet applications now need to support home/remote use, making MVC more attractive to that crowd than it had been.
Use MVC if all your team members are skilled enough to manage "control over HTML", otherwise your code will turn into a tag soup.
In other words
bool useMvc = true;
foreach (TeamMember member in team.Members)
{
useMvc = useMvc && member.IsSkilled;
}
http://weblogs.asp.net/shijuvarghese/archive/2008/07/09/asp-net-mvc-vs-asp-net-web-form.aspx
check that blog !
Bottom line "separation of concerns"
I'll give you a couple purposes, with clear advantages.
If your purpose is a public facing website that will be banking on traffic, use MVC. It is optimal for search engine optimization.
If your purpose is an enterprise web-application that acts like a desktop app, I would lean towards web forms, since state management and compartmentalization of your resources into underlying server controls offers huge advantages if used correctly.
The biggest problems facing developers is managing complexity and keeping code "clean". MVC gives the developer the reins to leverage OOP to tuck away complexity and make code easy on the eyes.
Webforms will be faster to develop in the short term, but it doesn't lend itself to long term sustainability in terms of maintenance and growth.
I've worked with Web forms for 13 years and MVC for 2 years now and when I started with MVC, I had similar questions. Here are my takeaways.
Most importantly: ASP.NET's latest release is 4.6 and they were moving to ASP.NET 5.0, but MS abandoned that for ASP.NET Core, which no longer supports Web Forms (or even VB.NET). So, that alone might give you your answer when deciding what rabbit hole to go down.
That being said:
MVC I'm finding, once you get the hang of it, is WAY easier for dealing with basic forms and any sort of simple "Model", aka tables with a very simple, straight-forward set of relationships such as orders that have tables that link to users, products, etc. Once you start getting into some more complicated relationships and need to return lots of conditional sets of results, rely on parameters, have complicated stored procedures... then Web Forms is much better for dealing with this. If you don't have to deal with this level of complication, MVC makes development SO MUCH faster, especially with dealing with an approach where you already have the DB because it creates so much of the code and validation for you already
If you're not very experienced with database design, MVC does the work for you. It can literally build the database for you.
MVC doesn't have a lot of the built in controls that Web Forms does (Gridviews, FormViews, Sitemaps, Paged lists). Everything has to be written from scratch, but luckily a lot of people have already invented that stuff for you in NuGet which you can just download into your project
MVC relies heavily on the structure of your URL. The path, the querystring, etc. If you find your application needing to do a lot of form POSTing instead of GET-ting, you're going to have to do a lot of tweaking or AJAX posting. If you have a set URL that can't change, it can be a pain. It's doable, but just a little tricker (or you can just use Angular instead).
MVC has no Viewstate. If you need to hide variables from post to post and persist them, it's a little difficult. MVC Does have things like ViewBag which lets you pass data from your controller to your page, but it clears after the page is rendered. There is also something called "Tempdata" which acts like Session state, but more temporary. However, it relies on Session State which is not an ideal way of persisting data. Session variables and tempdata variables are fine for user-level data (profile information for the person logged in), but having two different tabs open by the same user can cause these session/tempdata variables to overwrite each other when you're dealing with the actual model data.
If you're at a crossroads, I'd go with MVC. MS is pushing it and support for Web Forms will likely start going away
Last week at Mix '09, the final version of ASP.NET MVC 1.0 was released.
Some of the stated benefits of this framework are:
Clear separation of concerns
Testability - support for Test-Driven Development
Fine-grained control over HTML and JavaScript
Intuitive URLs
Now, Microsoft are being careful to tout this as being "an alternative, not a replacement, for ASP.NET Web Forms", but given the advantages mentioned above, I'm wondering:
How long will it be until "classic" ASP.NET Web Forms is considered to be a "legacy" framework?
If you were kicking off the development of a new .NET web project today, why would you choose to use Web Forms instead of the ASP.NET MVC offering?
Good questions. I think ultimately, the answer is going to be the development team's expertise and the project needs that will decide that. ASP.NET web forms is so heavily used that it likely isn't going away anytime soon. Plus, there are so many custom controls and third-party support such as components and books. The main benefit of web forms is how easy it is to get a dynamic website up and going. It really is a RAD way of developing websites.
However, once that team has more experience with creating larger websites with much higher demands in terms of scalability, reliability, and test-ability, then they will look towards other solutions for that. In this case, they will realize that web forms are harder for unit-testing. They may also see that viewstates reduce performance and look for possible solutions.
Although MVC has the stated benefits, it is unlikely that anyone will convert their sites to use this new framework right away or ever. Plus, it requires the team to learn the new technology, and work out the new bugs. The team will have to learn new ways to do the exact same thing. For example, how easy is it to support uploading a file using MVC?
As I saw recently, there isn't a reason you can't create a site using MVC and web forms together. So you may see more hybrids in the near future. But I doubt that web forms will ever go away.
I kind of think about web forms like the way VB1 changed the way Windows applications are created on the desktop. To this day, the RAD way of creating application still exists and will never go away.
Keep in mind that MVC STILL uses WebForms for it's default View Engine. Sure, you can replace it with another one, but WebForms is still a core part of it.
Also, not everyone prefers to tightly control the HTML or the Routing. That's not my attitude, but some people just want their job done with the smallest effort.
And aren't .asmx Files technically part of the "old" Model as well? I can say for sure that a lot of people would not like to see them go away.
Still, I personally see ASP.net MVC becoming the main Web Engine for ASP.net in the future, although not in .net 4.0 yet.
You're asking when a newly-released web platform, ASP.NET MVC, will replace Web Forms, which has been around for seven years.
If we'd been crying out for ASP.NET MVC for the past seven years, then it wouldn't have taken seven years before ASP.NET MVC was released. The fact is, not everyone sees a need for this. Many of us have been creating complex, highly-scalable web applications for most of those seven years.
We even knew how to make them testable, and to separate presentation from business logic and data access. ASP.NET MVC may enforce this separation, but I've done it by using coding standards and code reviews, and by saying, "there's no unit test for that", and "get that business logic out of the UI".
Also, if I really needed more control of the HTML, I would write my own control to generate the HTML.
I do not believe WebForms will ever retire.
I've been using WebForms at work in business applications and MVC at home for some private things. Though I really like MVC I do not see how this could be possible to implement really complex UI logic with HTML/CSS/JavaScript. It will quickly become unmanageable and will be quite unsecure since JavaScript can be switched off to prevent disabling some controls or hiding some information. On the contrary, turning off JavaScript with WebForms will virtually turn the page dead for any action, either authorized or not.
Both platforms will continue to evolve. For general web sites and HTML/CSS lovers MVC is a way to go, with complex applications you would want object-oriented architecture and artificial event handling even though it abstracts you from the stateless nature of HTTP.
So, pick up what is best for you.
P.S. Dropping WebForms altogether will jeopardize the future of numerous projects and companies throughout the world. Microsoft folks would not want to become an object of hatred and the trigger that started the third world war.
WebForms will still have a place for those that want a pseudo-stateless web application that they can easily put together by dragging and dropping. For those that don't have to or want to understand how HTTP works. It's the ultimate in RAD for web applications.
ASP.NET MVC on the other hands allows much more finer control at the cost of more responsibility. You get complete control over your HTML however that means you have to sanitize/encode your output yourself. Your application for the most part has to be completely stateless and for some ASP.NET WebForms/Windows WinForms developers that it's a bit hard to wrap their mind around.
I don't think either will ever dominate the other though one may be favored.