This is a serious question, specifically relating to the many frameworks out there for Wordpress and Joomla - Warp, T3, Gantry etc. What I dont understand is how they are different to a starter template and what exactly you are supposed to do with them - simply child theme them or is it a whole other codex to learn? I mean, all of the native codex is there with Joomla and WP anyway to construct a theme simple enough so what good does a whole proprietary app do between your design and the CMS? Are they faster to develop with?
What confuses me is that people seem to love them and claim that they make life easier but I dont get how adding another technology to learn can make things easier. Like I say, it is a serious question, not one for effect to make a point.
Can anybody define the difference between a framework and a starter template? I ask in part because I am one of those anxious developers who always feels like I am somehow missing a trick or doing things the "wrong" way - what am I missing?
This is definitely mostly an issue of definition, and I can guarantee that some cases will not follow what I outline below. Obviously, anyone is free to call the template/framework by whatever they want.
Generally though, a template is comprised of basic HTML and CSS that works with the platform (Wordpress, Joomla, etc) that is used to build the output to the page. In Wordpress, this contains the loop and other constructs to get all the content for the page. In Joomla, it outlines all the module positions available and such.
Typically when you purchase a higher end theme, you will have significant choices on the backend to customize the theme without having to actually code. These parameters let you typically change colors and such.
Some of the theme developers and others have taken this parameter settings system to the next level and made it into a framework. In all the cases that I've seen, "framework" is really the basis for the template parameter system. In this way, you can have consistency between different themes and expect the same settings and features between different themes. This is why they use a different word, because it really isn't a "theme" any more. It really is like a "theme engine" in that it is a backend system for changing things in the theme.
Yes, many platforms offer some basic options for editing the theme out of the box, so in most cases, the framework is really an improvement on the base platform's theme engine.
It's been my experience that a theme will be a visual style along with a set of theme options available in the admin (in addition to Customize if it's supported).
Theme Frameworks on the other hand, like Thesis, are installed just like a theme but have a very vanilla visual style that you build your theme on top of. Usually the framework provides many added features that aren't available in WP core.
tl;dr - Themes frameworks aren't installed and used right away, they are installed and built upon to deliver a site.
First of all i don't have any experience on wordpress.. So please forgive my ignorance.. I've found a theme on themeforest. Unfortunately it's a wordpress theme. I want to develop my own admin panel. I don't want to use wordress. Is it possible?
Anything is possible, however this is a gum in hair scenario. Ask the theme author if there is an HTML version which is common on ThemeForest. If you do try to "extract" the layout:
Begin with the stylesheet and match up the styles with each page template's markup.
Also, why not use WordPress? The Redux theme options framework is very easy to use.
Since a wordpress theme is just a bunch of html/css/js/php files, yes, it is possible. Depending on what language/framework will used backend side, the easiest way would be to extract the html/css/js parts of the theme and than add your own "content-placeholders" which will be used by your own backend.
But: Think twice about doing this. First, there could be a conflict with the license of the theme (depending on what type of license is used by the author of the theme). And more important, second, you should think twice about building your own backend.
For the case this isn't an experiment and you're building a productive website, building you're own backend is a lot of work. Unless you need some special functionalities (or you would like to keep it very slim and basic), I would suggest using a ready made CMS for this - like wordpress.
My opinion: 95% of self-made backends for basic cms features I've seen (and was forced to work with) are very messy and far beyond available open source cms. It seems like many people don't balance the pros and cons of building an own CMS-backend and undervalue the effort to build a state-of-the-art CMS.
I'm looking for tools or libraries that load simple but old existing websites and produce an output which can be loaded into wordpress or other CMS. The goal is to keep the existing websites navigating structure and content.
Any hints?
What I've discovered is that it really depends upon the CMS. I would recommend a "tag-pair"-based CMS like the new Craft or ExpressionEngine's free Core version (there're others too) where you drop in a looping control area, replace the fields with the tags and then it just runs. I personally like those because they offer a cleaner separation between content and design.
I'm trying to learn Wordpress now and it's backwards of what you want - you create template environments and half the design seems to be controlled by the code. Great if you want to swap generic templates around, but if you customize them you're doing a lot of work. I'm looking at a site I inherited and conditional statements are a nightmare - half in the templates and other in the plugins themselves (Events, I'm looking at you).
For about a year and a half I used Codeigniter to build my sites. Then a client begged me to build theirs in Wordpress. I soon found the joy of using a CMS (if Wordpress can be called that). So for about the last 8 months I have been using Wordpress as much as possible to buld my sites - I made the content fit the design.
Well, I began to grow very tired of the limitations of Wordpress - I needed more control and flexibility over my sites. So, I have recently started using Drupal 7 (not 6.x - I really like the admin panel).
After working with Drupal now for a little under two months - I have begun to feel like I'm using Stone Age Tools to build Space Age equipment.
So my question is: does Drupal get any better? Do you really have to use Views to display your content? Asking for help on the forums is just a shake better than asking a wall. I feel like to do anything requires a module. Why? Is one better off sticking to a framework?
"After working with Drupal now for a little under two months - I have begun to feel like I'm using Stone Age Tools to build Space Age equipment."
Well, my intiial reaction is that this is what you're going to feel like you're doing when you're working with Drupal 7, which isn't out of alpha yet. A good number of the folks who maintain modules haven't started upgrading to 7 yet, and that means that you're missing out on one of the great features of Drupal, which is it's wide and deep space of premade modules.
Try 6.
Do you need to use views to display all content? No, not at all. You can go in, create a new module, and write the sql and presentation that you want. Or you can find a module that will display things for you. Or, depending, you might be able to get the effect you want just by adjusting the theme you're using.
(As a side note, using an admin theme really pretties up the Drupal experience. I'm fond of rootcandy, although Rubik is nice too. Problem with Rubik is that it's not on drupal.org.)
The strength of Drupal is that by using modules, you don't have to re-write code that someone else has written - you can instead take that code and modify it (with hooks) to do what you want. This means you don't have to write an authentication/autherization system again - it's there in core. You don't need to write up openid handlers - it's in core. You don't need to write code to integrate with twitter directly - there's a module that contains an api that helps out. You don't have to write an xmlrpc server from scratch - you can use the services module.
You don't need to write a website from scratch. Instead, you can start with Drupal, add most of the functionality you need, and then spend your time making it fit what your client wants.
Firstly, you can install the Admin module to pretty up Drupal 6 admin. You don't have to use 7. 7 is still in alpha, by the way. Garland sucks, but, Garland is just a theme- its not 'the' admin itself. The Drupal admin can take the form of any Drupal theme, which is useful in its own right, depending on the use-case.
In Drupal, you can create content types clicking through the interface in Drupal 6 or 7. As far as I can see in WP3, you have to script it. A few clicks vs scripting, the choice for me is not hard there. The first way is a lot more efficient, and a task you can hand off to a non coder to get done.
You don't HAVE to use Views to display content.
You -can- use Views to make the display of content easier, by telling Drupal to gather data and provide a Page, Block, or Feed to display . This lets you create specific sections of content for areas of the site. Otherwise, you would have to create a node, and hijack its template, run a direct sql query yourself AND write the pager functions just to show something easy like the latest 10 "Press Releases" content type. Then, if someone added a new field to that content type, you have to update all that SQL code and display code. Views makes your life easier in that respect. In minutes you can flesh out site sections and arrange content in a myriad of ways. In Wordpress, this method of arranging content without functionality of Views is/was a modern nightmare and a reason I do not want to use it at all unless its a blog and nothing more.
The Drupal Support Forum is tricky. Not all modules are as active as say, Views or Pathauto (being two of the most popular modules). However, SO is also at your disposal. I answer a lot of Drupal questions here. The trick to the Forum there is you have to ask it in the right spot. True, sometimes you may have to wait a few days to get an answer, then again no one -owes- you an answer for a free product. Thats the nature of open source.
Every developer has their favorite modules to use with Drupal, and more often than not, its the same 20 or so modules. It depends on what you are doing, what you are trying to implement. It's not that 'everything needs a module' its that Drupal is such a vanilla install because Drupal does not want to assume your purpose nor overwhelm with options. The UX is something they are trying to improve anyway, and popular modules are making their way into core.
Well, I began to grow very tired of
the limitations of Wordpress - I
needed more control and flexibility
over my sites. So... I have recently
started using Drupal 7
Why not go back to CI? Drupal certainly has it's strengths, but I don't think Drupal will give you any more "control and flexibility" than Wordpress.
If the standard modules/plugins, themes/templates, from WP, Drupal, or Joomla, fill your needs, then using a CMS can be a lot faster than building a site from scratch. But, if those CMSs do not fill your needs, you could find yourself "fighting the framework" and never really getting what you want.
You're just coming out from WordPress, which has great support and is relatively easy to extend to overcome what you call its limitations, if you know basic PHP, HTML, CSS & JavaScript. Every framework has its own potential/limitations.
As a user of WordPress my humble opinion is that you should have stayed with it.
As of you last question, It depends, to stick with one and only one framework has its advantages and disadvantages, the best of all is that you get to know it very well and eventually learn how to extended it. The bad part is that very often frameworks lose popularity and you are left to you own without an active user community and support.
Regards.
All of the popular CMS products (I'd maybe add Expression Engine to the mix) are great for 80% of what you want to accomplish and a huge pain to handle the other 20%.
That's just the nature of the beast.
On the plus side, it's OS so there's lots of people hacking away at it just like you which opens up the potential for someone else already having invented the wheel.
And with bulky enterprise CM solutions like SharePoint I find that you have to reverse the equation to 20/80 (ugh!).
If you're discouraged with Drupal and prefer to stick with WP, WordPress has many thousands of plugins, including ones that can overcome the limitations you're running into and make WP behave more like a normal CMS.
Just do a Google search for "top Wordpress CMS plugins." There's a lot of articles out there that can recommend ways to get WP to do exactly what you want.
I have recently started working with Drupal on the side and have had to tackle the limitations I come up against in the Views API. More than not I find it faster and more powerful to code it myself.
It is hard to create custom views that have a specific look and feel without create custom files anyway.
Creating the pages from scratch in a *.tpl.php gives me more choice and flexibility. I have done a couple of them now and it is almost as fast.
For a developer (since this is a programming forum) what is better in your opinion:
Views or Custom templates?
I'm not even sure what you mean by custom templates (please say you're not hardcoding SQL into .tpl.php files), but no matter what you mean, the answer is to use Views wherever possible.
Reasons:
Development speed - I promise you creating a View will be faster than a custom module 99.9% of the time
Stability - it has hundreds of thousands of testers
Security - it has the eyes of many on its code
Support - there are hundreds of contrib modules that interact with Views somehow
Maintenance - Views is a Drupal standard. Using custom modules gives your site's maintenance an unnecessary learning curve.
Upgrading - Views will provide an upgrade path from D6 to D7. Your custom stuff won't.
As for your "it is hard to create custom views that have a specific look and feel" point, I think you'll change your mind after a little time with template_preprocess_whatever() functions and overriding Views templates. You have absolute control if you want it.