Our organization has dedicated designers who design the page and cut it up in Dreamweaver. That's worked well in the past with ASP and PHP sites. Now we're trying to make it work with .NET, but are struggling because of the structure of a project in ASP.NET. How does everybody collaborate with developers? The specific points I am looking for are:
-Transferring Dreamweaver content to Visual Studio
-Changing HTML inputs to server controls
-Giving designer access to finished Visual Studio product so they can tweak layout
Thanks!
Obviously, there will be a slight learning curve for your designers. But with that said, I have worked quite often with designers (none of whom used Dreamweaver, btw, so that may be part of the problem) on asp.net sites. Usually, they will create the HTML exactly how they want it on the server like a static HTML page, then I will go in and replace form fields manually with asp.net controls.
On an aside, I have found that I have the best chance of matching the design using controls that spit out the least HTML, such as Repeaters instead of DataGrids.
Once the site is up on the server and programmed, they can go back in an tweak things if need be.
Also, just like we have to adapt to them a bit (making our server controls spit out html how they like it) they also have to adapt to us a bit and not rely as heavily on id attributes in their stylesheets as some items id attributes will be controlled by hte .net runtime since they are controls.
MOre often than not, a designer new to asp.net will feel very threatened by this new way of doing things, specially with user controls instad of include files, but its really not that different than classic asp/php development is.
The key to the solution of all your problems in this matter is quite simple, and yet so hard to fulfill: it's usually called semantic markup. If you can make sure that the designers to start with make their html semantic, and that the .Net programmers keep rendering the same markup but with their server controls where needed, the tweaking won't be a problem - the markup is the same.
So what is semantic html, then? you may ask. Well, it's not always as simple as one would like it to be. A good start is to make every page pass XHTML validation.
In my experience, designer-created HTML almost always needs to be at least refactored, if not rewritten. So, open a browser with the original HTML on the left, and try to match it as closely as possible in VS on the right screen.
Giving designers access to ASP markup is not a good idea, imho. Too much can go wrong if you only understand half of the tags you are manipulating.
How about using one of Microsoft Expressions line of products? I've heard they are to .NET what dreamweaver is to PHP/ASP.
Related
On most projects I've been one, designers has produced HTML code, then developers turned it into ASP.NET, including master-pages etc that should really be a part of design.
After it has become ASP.NET, designers could not work on the code with their tools.
I know that a lot of the design of ASP.NET is made with the purpose of separating code and design, and in principle designers should be able to work on design aspects with the Visual Web Developer, but I've never seen a designer using VWD.
How is cooperation done in practice, and what is about the best one can expect from a designer?
From someone who does both:
Most of the design should be done with CSS, so this isn't a problem.
The layout of the page, therefore, comes down to elements with IDs and classes (simplistically speaking).
I try to keep these IDs and classes as is, and place ContentPlaceHolders inside them as needed, when possible, and create controls or skins with the right classes.
Optimally, designers and programmers should work together, and know each others limitations and requirements (this cannot always be done, sometimes these are done by different companies). I think most of the responsibility here lies on the developers - they need the right controls to get the expected output.
Frankly, a web designer should care about HTML and CSS, not about what server-side technology is used to deliver them. The best I would expect from a web designer is to write flexible CSS, that can take a view changes to the HTML structure without breaking (that is - extra divs or tables, as ASP.NET tends to do).
A good ASP.NET developer will intelligently use the set of controls available. For example, in most cases, the ListView will do everything the GridView can, and produce clean, SEO-friendly markup.
In the ASP.NET environment, I would encourage the use of Expression by designers. Business owners can avail of the new deal from Microsoft and obtain VS, Expression, etc., for $100 for three years.
I think both developers and designers have to embrace each others world for anything to work.
We are still stuck with the old fashioned way of the designer producing PSD documents and hopefully rendering them into HTML.
Then we take them over and convert them to .Net, then the designer requests a change and we go in circles for a while before coming to an acceptable solution.
It would be nice if the designer could integrate into the HTML of .Net easier but I don't see that happening for a while, not while Microsoft advocates using scripting in your development..
I've found that using ASP.NET MVC will make the designer's job much easier. Especially if you stay away from using things like HTML.RenderImage, and instead place an IMG tag on the page with <%= ViewData["MyImage"] %> as the src. This will allow the designer to see the html they like and understand, while giving you the flexibility to set the source(which is all the developer should be doing). The goal being to stay away from ASP.NET controls, which would confuse a designer, while still keeping their flexibility to develop quickly.
Recently our newest web designer asked me why we use ASP.NET for our website. Reading through his question to the real one, I started thinking about it myself. Why are we using ASP.NET for web development?
The problem we find so far is colaboration between the design team and developers. Typically our designers create some snazzy cool look crayon laced web pages, then show them off for approval in all their glory. Once approved, the developers rip the HTML out and shove it in to ASP master and detail pages, and huzzah! out comes pretty website.
Since Dreamweaver doesn't play nice with Visual Studio, this is the same process for even small tweaks and changes. I would prefer to just write the backend and let the designers draw the pretty pictures and fancy CSS. Our current websites have plenty of reason to use ASP on nearly every page, so I can't do half in HTML, the other half in ASP.
I have no aversion to doing something else, another language, CMS platform, some other random buzzword, etc...
What are your experiences with this design situation? Are we doing it the hard way? Should we consider alternate platforms and languages? Are there any good, proven ways to allow designers to work on ASP (while still using Dreamweaver)?
Start learning Asp.net MVC as soon as possible. Designers will love you for that. :) And you'll be up to date with new development technologies that will also make your solutions much more robust and less complicated.
But otherwise. Designers should be able to read XHTML fluently. Learning asp.net semantics shouldn't be too hard. Then give then Visual Studio where they can manipulate content. As long as they know how asp.net web forms work things should be fine. They'll probably be able to do majority of things using just CSS. I know I can. Sometimes I do have to check resulting HTML, but it works.
Aside from Wicket (a java web framework), I don't know of any framework or language that would allow designers to continue to work on the design once developers have started to add logic to it.
I would suggest two things though:
Use a MVC framework - ASP.NET MVC, Ruby on Rails, Django, etc since this allows for far more separation of presentation and logic
Keep your presentation layer as stupid as possible and use helpers as much as possible or even better, put the logic in the domain objects. The view should only show or get data with absolutely no logic for processing data, this will keep the pages much more designer friendly.
I find your question very interesting because no matter what kind of technology the project uses the interfaces between the different roles will always cause some friction. I am not sure if there is a technological solution to this communication issue because the designer and developer speak literally different languages.
Depending on the skillset of your designers and developers an additional layer might help you out. I do not know how ASPX works but i am sure there will equivalents to the concepts of other technologies.
In case you have mainly static content which can be expressed in XML than you could provide the backend which delivers the content in XML with a defined Schema and your designers could describe the transformation in XHTML and CSS via XSLT. Given that your designer are capable using XHTML and CSS the addtional effort to learn XML and XSLT is not that huge. I find this solution much powerful than template languages which try to emulate the richness of the serverside scripting language in their own limited constructs. In case you have dynamic elements on the clientside like DHTML, AJAX or you name it you could define your own xml tags which are transformed to richer client side objects after the designer did their work. I guess the designer will understand the usage of these special tags and you provide the proper translation into client side objects.
I used this approach with some coworkes based on PHP. PHP was only the driver for the transformation. The content was assembled into xml with special tags which were transformed into XHTML and CSS via XSLT. Once the objects and the transformation for the different objects is defined you build up a library which can help to shorten the developement cycle of new pages of you webapplication. The benefit of the extra work is, that you designer can change the layout of the page without ever touching you server side code.
Maybe this helps.
Consider using either Expression Web or SharePoint Designer. The latter is now free.
I know you specify dreamweaver, but have you looked at Blend? It plays very nice with Visual Studio and is quite a nice app. to work with.
I am a c# developer.
Recently I had to design a web UI in asp .net 2.0 .I had strange problems with aligning controls in Visual studio UI.
I have used Div, table tags to align asp .net controls(labels, textbox, grid etc).
But the problem was what I saw in design surface of visual studio was entirely different (most of the time) when I view the page in browser.
The gap between controls and alignments was never perfect .I have seen other developers also doing trial and error methods without a proper guidelines.
C# coding I am pretty good and I have lots of Microsoft articles and help materials to guide me.
But I haven’t found proper articles and guidelines for UI design of asp .net pages.(may be its out there and i havent found yet?)
Can anyone through more light on this subject. Any good books ,suggestions etc?
Thanks in advance
SNC
If you want granular control over your HTML/XHTML output then I would recommend switching to ASP.NET MVC. The problems you've described are those typically encountered when using ASP.NET WebForms. As Anton mentions, you do need to gain a good understanding of XHTML and CSS as well.
While I definitly +1 everyone suggesting that you get a better grasp of CSS and positioning in general and ditch the drag and drop method of building your controls, I figure you need something sooner rather than later.
For that, I give you Yahoo!'s CSS Grids (JQuery, MooTools and other libraries also have grid layout tools) which will help you to get your UI done quickly. In the mean time read up on CSS.
(X)HTML is compositional - not unlike XAML (which is actually modeled on HTML/CSS). When building WinForms you can drag and drop your controls onto the window willy-nilly, but not so with the web. One thing the drag and drop designer misses is that (X)HTML components have a hierarchy to them. The designer tries to overcome this by using position: absolute; which is a precarious crutch.
Your controls need to be composed with their positional relationships more or less intact already and that means you'll have to edit the code by hand to put things in the proper order.
It's not the UI design per se. What you need is solid understanding of how CSS and generally styles work on the web (in short: they do poorly). So what you need is a good CSS book. Plus, you'll have to dump WYSIWYG ASP.NET page editor.
I'm curious if you feel your HTML skills are on par. Could you create this same page in HTML without visual studio and get the results you expect (using notepad)?
Regardless, start spending more time in the HTML markup and less time using the designer surface in Visual Studio. The more you understand the output that ASP.NET creates the better a web developer you will become.
A trick I use quite often is knowing that you don't need to recompile to change aspx code. Make your changes to the aspx file, save, and then refresh your browser. Also, use firefox and get the webdeveloper plugin. I use the outline block level elements quite often to understand where some of my html flow problems are occurring.
Read up on Web Design. I'm a bit behind but I've always loved zengarden and zeldman.. I'm sure there's better out there now.
Looking for some direction here as I'm running into some migration problems.
We have a legacy application. The 'infrastructure' is running just fine. Business logic and data access layers written in VB calling SQL Server for the database.
I have a LOT of experience writing Winforms (desktop) application and have had no problems. However, the last time I wrote any ASP.NET stuff was in 1.1 (VS.NET 2003).
Among other things, for ASP.NET 2.0 and up, the Grid layout is gone. It's not just a simple case of dropping controls on a form, aligning them, ordering them and working with the code-behind anymore.
The new web-based application is starting out pretty simple. Just a common header (already made a user control for that) and footer with your typical CRUD functions in the middle.
I tried being 'intuative' in using a master page with content place holders but I couldn't get the placeholders to "grow", to say nothing of not being able to put a text box where I wanted one. Oh, I found the option in VS2008 to allow absolute positioning but it only worked for SOME controls - others I had to manually edit the asp tags.
Then I saw examples using div's and tried to implement them but I ended up with results that had objects writing on top of each other. The online help wasn't helpful to say the least.
Does anyone know of a good book, website or tutorial that can give the basics of what I'm looking for? In practice, I'm looking to make simple pages where some objects may have to push others gurther down the y-axis (as in, several comments being made and that section would push the section listing the 'attachments' down further). I have no trouble when it comes to all the other aspects of this application. It just appears that my webforms skills are about 3-4 years out of date.
This isn't going to be some fancy flash/silverlight application - just simple 'data maintenance' to get rid of some ugly and bug-prone processes involving reading common mailboxes and decoding Word files. The new goal is to have a nice weborm with proper validation.
I guess what I'm looking for is a "Webforms for Winforms programmers" book or site.
Help!
Thanks in advance.
The best advice I've heard on learning to use html/css layout goes something like this:
When building a new page, don't try to get all fancy up front. Start by building a very basic, text-only page. It should look like something from 1996- that brief period where everyone had just discovered the web but had not yet started using the table tag for layout- only no comic sans font. Don't use images at this point, unless the image is genuinely a part of the information being conveyed (as opposed to the window dressing to make it look pretty: you can add those later). There will likely be an h1 at the top of the page, and give each sub heading an appropriate hN, but at this point there shouldn't be any layout information in the page at all. The only place you'll have a table tag is if you genuinely have tabular data to show. If it helps you write this code then you can wrap everything in old-fashioned <center> tags for now- just don't forget to remove them later.
Now let's start tweaking the markup a little. Use things like ul (unordered list) for your list of navigation links and label/legend to identify and group your form areas. The general idea here is to have each element on the page encased in the most appropriate html tag, and to use the full set of available tags- each for it's designated purpose.
At this point you have a page that is ideally suited for a screen reader or search engine. By building this page first, you have made SEO and accessibility compliance easy on yourself. Of course those aren't the only requirements, so we're not done yet.
Now you need to identify the different sections of your page, from both the layout and logical perspectives. The page should largely already be divided logically, but you may find a few places where the normal tags don't cut it. You'll also want to group certain elements for layout reasons. Encase each of these areas with a div tag, and give the tag a class name that refers to the purpose for the tag: the group your are creating. This is just another case of using the a tag (the "division" tag) for it's intended purpose. Also, since elements can have more than one class, you may want to think about also grouping your classes logically. For example, you might want to have a separate class that distinguishes the site template from the rest of the page.
By and large this should not have changed the appearance of the page, but now you have something where it should be very easy to start adding styles. At this point you can now start adding images and layout. The goal here, though, is to change the actual markup as little as possible. If you can manage it only add ids and classes, though you will likely need to add an additional span or div that you had not identified earlier, and sometimes you'll need an extra block level element to force a compatible layout across browsers.
If things are done correctly, the result is a page that not only looks good, but is also easier to work with when testing across browsers, will naturally degrade well when a style or javascript feature isn't supported, and scores well for SEO and accessibility. This also makes it easier to have a developer build a simple page that provides a certain level of functionality, which they can this pass off to a separate designer to make it look good.
You may also want to check out A List Apart. This is a great website with lots of "tricks" for using CSS to layout things on the web along with lots of other web oriented content.
Grid positioning was an abomination for websites. Sure it made for an easy transition from those familiar with the WinForms designer, but it produced horride HTML that is nearly impossible to maintain.
The very best resource I can recommend to you is CSS Mastery. You'll need to learn HTML and CSS, but they're quite easy to get into.
By the sounds of it, you're looking for a crash course in HTML ?
the "Design Canvas" of an ASP.NET aspx Page & ascx Control is just HTML tag markup.
If you've no web design experience, I'd recommend starting somewhere like
W3Schools
When Microsoft gave us ASP.NET, they tried to make programming websites, more like programming rich client applications. However, there are a lot of issues you have to deal with, the major one being statelessness, when developing for the web that don't exist when developing a thick client app (WinForms). So the first step is to not think of the two as similar in anyway.
The drag and drop tools are nice, but what you really need to understand is HTML and client server models. HTML will help you understand how things are getting laid out, and client server models are important to understand how data gets to and from the web to the server. If you have developed in ASP.NET 1.1, then things really haven't changed for 2.0. The concepts are the same, just some of the provided controls have changed.
A lot of people were really unhappy with the grid-based layout from 1.1, because it didn't really work in a number of situations. It still has to ultimately render as html, and html just isn't suited to that kind of layout. For example, things might not be ordered properly or pushed off the screen for mobile browsers (iPhone, etc). There's also things like screen readers for the blind. If you work for the government, that 2nd item is a legal requirement rather than just a nice-to-have, and there are a lot of developers who do work for the government.
So ASP.Net 2.0 tried to generate markup that's at least a little nicer for html. The downside is that you actually have to understand html layout now. But, c'mon: you're building a web site. If you can't handle a little html you're in real trouble.
My advice to build one static page using something other than visual studio. Use <input tags rather than server controls on that page and don't actually implement any logic. Use it to understand how your layout will need to work. Once you have that down, it's really easy to duplicate that for your pages in Visual Studio.
This doesn't really belong as a separate answer, but I wasn't sure you were likely to see another comment to my response above.
The normal behavior of all block-level elements, including divs, is for each new element to appear below the previous element. It sounds like you've set position:absolute; on everything, perhaps while playing with the Grid-based layout option in visual studio. Don't do that- it's hijacked the expected behavior and that's why you see everything piled on top of each other.
I know Microsoft has made efforts in the direction of semantic and cross-browser compliant XHTML and CSS, but it still seems like a PitA to pull off elegant markup. I've downloaded and tweaked the CSS Friendly Adapters and all that. But I still find myself frustrated with bloated and unattractive code.
Is elegant, semantic CSS with ASP.Net still a pipe dream? Or is it finally possible, I just need more practice?
The easiest way to generate elegant HTML and CSS is to use MVC framework, where you have much more control over HTML generation than with Web Forms.
See this question for more discussion, including use of MVC. This site uses ASP.NET and the markup is pretty clean. Check out the HTML/CSS on MicrosoftPDC.com (a site I'm working on) - it uses ASP.NET webforms, but we're designing with clean markup as a priority.
As long as you use the Visual Studio designer, it's probably a pipe dream. I write all of my ASP.NET code (all markup, and CSS) by hand, simply to avoid the designer. Later versions of Visual Studio have gotten much better at not mangling your .aspx/.ascx files, but they're still far from perfect.
A better question is: is it really worth it? I write web applications and rarely does the elegance of the resulting HTML/CSS/JavaScript add anything to the end goal. If your end goal is to have people do a "view source" on your stuff and admire it, then maybe this is important and worth all of the effort, but I doubt it.
If you need the semantics, use XML for your data. I do believe in the idea of the semantic web, but my applications don't need to have anything to do with it.
As DannySmurf said, hand building is the way to go.
That said, you might look at Expression Web. At least it is pretty accurate in how it renders the pages.
#JasonBunting - Yes, it's absolutely worth it. Semantic and cross-browser markup means that search engines have an easier (and thus higher rankings) time with your content, that browsers have an easier (and thus less error-prone) time parsing your content for display, and that future developers have an easier time maintaining your code.
Yes - it's a pipe dream. Since working with a professional web designer on a joint project who HATED the output of ASP.net server side controls I stopped using them. I essentially had to write ASP.net apps like you would write a modern PHP app. If you have a heavy business layer then your page or UI code can be minimal.
I've never looked back since. The extra time spent writing everything custom has saved me a great deal of time trying to make Visual Studio / ASP.net play nice with CSS/XHTML.
i can't believe nobody has mentioned css adapters. many of the common controls used in asp.net (gridview and treeview for example) can be processed through an adapter to change the resulting html that is outputted to the browser.
if going the mvc route isn't a viable option, it is possible to write your own adapters for any of the built in asp.net controls.
http://www.asp.net/CssAdapters/