Like every web developer, I usually curse the creators of IE6 with foul and untimely deaths at least once a week. Yet my company requires me to keep supporting that most-hated of browsers.
My problem today has been wanting to first use a wildcard in my CSS and then trying to use the "inherit" property instead. Neither of which are supported by IE7-.
I really, REALLY want to have good, well-structured, properly-inheriting CSS (object-oriented CSS, if you like that buzzword) but I have that sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that sooner or later, it's going to have to be custom-purpose and location-based classes.
This poses the question: given how utterly awful IE is at handling many CSS concepts, is it impossible to adequately support this browser at the same time as having a well-structured CSS document?
Just to clarify: I'm aware that there are plenty of ways (some legitimate, some less so) to get around the bugs and shortcomings found in IE6 and 7. What I'm really asking is "if you want to have a single, well-written stylesheet that inherits correctly, must you choose between that and having a consistent look across all browsers?". Hope that makes sense.
In other words, should I stick to my principles and code a good style sheet or should I accept that IE6 still enjoys a horribly high (20% on last count) market share and bring myself to support it? Or is there some happy medium that allows me to minimise the frankenstein surgery on my HTML and CSS while still achieving some respectable results in IE?
To be fair, you can't blame it all on IE (though Microsoft certainly is by far the worst transgressor). Part of the problem with such large & rapidly-evolving standards is that it's too much of a moving target to be perfectly implemented in a timely fashion. Unfortunately, the release cycles of web browsers do not coincide with the release of new web specifications. So all browser developers can do is try to implement as many features as they can from the latest W3C recommendations, selecting what they think will be the most commonly used features to implement first.
However, things are clearly improving, and it is possible to support IE6/7 and still use proper CSS design. It's just... difficult. Take a look at this comparison of layout engines & CSS support. If you look at the overall trend, you'll see that most browsers (even IE) do tend to comply with established standards in the long-run, it just takes some browsers longer than others to implement a standard after its introduction.
And sometimes it's not that one browser is "less" standards-compliant than another. With new standards the problem is often that different development teams chose to adopt different parts of the new specification. So even though CSS3 is already beginning to be implemented by most browsers, we'll probably have to wait until CSS4 is published before seeing consistent support across all major rendering engines. And if you try to use the latest CSS3 features right now, you'll have a hard time establishing compatibility across all major browsers. But if you're using features introduced in CSS1, it's no problem at all.
Therefore, the only option--aside from using ugly CSS hacks--is to stick with well-established older specifications. Then the problem is no longer trying to conform to web standards while supporting a particular browser. Instead the problem simply becomes trying to resist the urge to use the latest & greatest CSS features.
Aside from that, the only permanent solution I see to this recurring situation is for the W3C to prioritize different parts of newly introduced specifications so that the new features can be implemented in discrete phases synchronized across all the major browsers. So, for instance, grammar rules might be given the highest priority along with a set deadline for its implementation. After that would come the second phase, which could be element & attribute selectors, and so on and so forth.
This would require a tremendous level of cooperation between the W3C and development teams, but it would be worth it. After all, it does users and web developers no good for IE to implement one subset of features from CSS3 while Firefox implements a different subset and the Webkit browsers yet another subset. A "standard" is no good until it's actually standardized across all the major rendering platforms. It's better for each browser to support fewer new features but have them all be the same features, than for them to separately introduce a ton of their own features that aren't universally supported.
Not at all - you can compensate for IE's shortcomings with conditional comments and an IE specific stylesheet, while serving your 'nice' stylesheet to other browsers.
Something else which I find helps is to use a CSS reset. While this isn't going to resolve all of IE's issues, it does give you a good baseline to work from.
The most anoying IE6 feature is it's box model handling. You should stick to margin instead when positioning boxes, and try to use relative font sizes to allow font resizing on IE. The rest of the quirks are well documented.
Using conditional comments is the cleanest way of having both a clean style sheet for well behaving browsers, and still using being beautiful on IE. This is what I use, only needing 1 css file of a few lines to repair my sites look and feel.
The dark path of crossbrowser consistent look & feel are css hacks, but I strongly discourage it's use, specialy now that for some time we'll have to target three different IE (6, 7 & 8)
Normally, if you get the style to work in both FF and Chrome/Safari, IE is only a few corrections away of being correct.
There is a great site Position Is Everything that details how FF, IE and Safari conform to standard CSS. At the site you will find most of the workarounds / cures for IE that will alleviate the need for you to write so much conditional code for your CSS.
You'll also want to check out A List Apart for more on CSS and IE. There are also great articles on tableless layout with CSS, handling the height bug in IE, etc. Good luck - IE 6 really sucks when it comes CSS.
Certainly not. If you ensure that they render the page in "standards" mode as opposed to "quirks" mode many of the common IE CSS issues are resolved. To do this you must provide a valid doctype statement at the top of the page, such as
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
As others have pointed out, another good idea is to start off your stylesheet with a snippet that removes all paddings and margins like so:
*,html {
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
}
Finally, one common problem with CSS based layouts in IE is that clearing of floats doesn't happen when you'd expect. This is to do with a hidden object property in IE called "hasLayout"; only objects that "have layout" will correctly wrap around and enclose floated child objects. It is easy to ensure that your containers "have layout" simply by specifying at least one dimension for them:
height: 1%;
width: 100%;
zoom: 1;
I do not personally use conditional IE stylesheets except for one single thing: to replace PNG backgrounds with GIFs in IE < 7 - there is nothing wrong with using them, I just find it unnescessarily complicates things when you have to define the appearance of the same object in two different places. With the three tips above and a bit of patience you should be able to create CSS based layouts using a single stylesheet that render just as well in IE 6/7 as they do in Mozilla/Webkit.
Happy coding!
IE 6 really does limit what we can do.
It’s the lack of support for advanced selectors (and inherit — IE 7 doesn’t support that either) that gets me. Just having the child selector and attribute selectors would be nice, that’d really cut down the amount of code we have to write and maintain. You can only work around the lack of support for them by duplicating your styles, so you just end up having to code as if they didn’t exist.
Sigh.
Only follow online CSS tutorials that is rendered correctly with IE6 and Chrome (or Webkit). If it looks right in both, it likely looks right in (almost) all browsers.
Related
Most CSS frameworks nowadays use either Reset CSS or Normalize.css to make sure that all elements have the same initial style across different browsers.
My question is - why? Is there a reason why every browser (or rather, rendering engine) has slightly different default styles? Also, is there any good reason why this is not standardized yet, to remove the need for "resetting" it since most people will want to reset it anyway?
It is always better Reset the style.
The reason that different browsers had different standard value is because they are from different point of view projekted.
Historically, different browser providers have implemented HTML standards
differently, leading to significant differences between the presentation of websites on
different browsers.
Today, the major browsers generally adhere to a high
level of standards
compliance (for HTML4) and very few users still use the problematic Internet Explorer 6
browser, so this is somewhat less of a worry than it used to be.
source: Hier
There are many people that use old browser, and we programmer must code so all get the better result of our work.
It doesn't take long to realise when using css that certain things are not cross-browser friendly.
For example, when I wanted a semi-transparent png I had to give IE something ridiculous like: filter: progid:DXImageTransform.Microsoft.AlphaImageLoader(...);
I've had problems with positioning and pseudo-selectors etc. as anyone who has played around with css for more than 20 minutes will have encountered.
To solve problems sometimes I start out deciding that I will only do what all the browsers support and support in the same (or at least a fairly similar) way.
Other times I just chuck in conditional comments and give IE it's own stylesheet.
And then on other occasions I simply use css hacks to exclude certain browsers from reading particular bits (like the old "* html {}" or "html>/**/body {}")
So my question is, which is the best option. The first is pretty limiting and you end up developing for what IE6 is capable of doing but the other two feel a bit mucky. So which is the bets in terms of programming practices, rendering efficiency etc.?
Short answer:
Do your best to adhere to standards
Be creative
Stop using hacks and start using conditional comments
In the long run, CSS hacks are just going to pollute your stylesheets and make them more difficult to maintain. Avoid them wherever you can, and use conditional comments with IE-specific stylesheets instead (since most hacks cater to IE). I can guarantee that CCs are much less mucky than hacks, if mucky at all.
You do not have to be limited by IE all the time. There's a concept called progressive enhancement, which means you can make your pages look slightly prettier in modern browsers that support advanced styling, and so on. There's nothing wrong with using CSS3 properties like border-radius today, since browser vendors are working (relatively) quickly to bring support for these to their products.
But then there are clients, which would be a different topic of discussion. I would say, though, strike a balance: educate your clients and be creative, but don't try to do anything too smart or fancy. And please, just avoid CSS hacks unless it's half past 4 in the morning and you're downing can after can of beer and just want to get something done in whatever circumstance.
I always prefer conditional comments with IE fixes. The hacks are not consistent with IE fixing the parsing so the hack doesn't work anymore but then not fixing the thing the hack was compensating. Also, they could mess with other CSS parsers.
I know this could boil down to a philosophical issue, so I don't mean to start a discussion on the topic. But I'm looking for the (or a couple of them) best way to resolve most issues of CSS styling in Internet Explorer 6.
I'm aware of this article on forabeautifulweb.com, and it's recommendation to just feed IE6 users a universal plain IE6 stylesheet with just some basic styling better than the browser defaults. For my application this is not the best.
I'm also aware of the concept of "fixing" IE6's CSS support via Javascript, and I'm sort of a fan of this idea. But I don't know what (if any) the best one is - I know there's several floating around in the wild. This article by Eric Meyer mentions one, but this was written almost 2 years ago, so is there a more standard script to use for this purpose now?
Can anybody point me to one or two such scripts that have been proven to be effective for updating some of IE6's handling of CSS to behave more like a modern browser?
UPDATE: to all the people answering who are trying to convince me not to use JS to fix the problem - I am plugging my ears and humming. :)
Seriously, I'm not asking whether or not to use JS for this. We've already decided we don't need to support IE6 and it is not worth the time for us to try to "debug" our stylesheets just for IE6. This decision is based on our audience and on our site stats for IE6 usage.
As far as all the comments about "what if the user doesn't have JS enabled?" Well in that case a lot of stuff on our site is not going to look right anyway, so that is somewhat of a mute point.
I've already implemented the IE7.js that Gordon suggested, and that is quite sufficient for us to get by in IE6, with very little drawback.
Thank you all just the same for your input.
You can use this library if you want to do it with JavaScript:
IE7.js is a JavaScript library to make Microsoft Internet Explorer behave like a standards-compliant browser. It fixes many HTML and CSS issues and makes transparent PNG work correctly under IE5 and IE6.
There is also CSS3Pie, which adds CSS3 support to browsers:
PIE makes Internet Explorer 6-8 capable of rendering several of the most useful CSS3 decoration features.
Also have a look at Progressive Enhancement and Graceful Degradation for a design philosophy.
Please don't use JavaScript to fix the problem, just add some rules to a stylesheet to fix them...
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="normal.css" />
<!--[if IE 6]>
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="ie6.css" />
<![endif]-->
In the ie6.css, you just have rules that fudge the styles to work in IE6, you still use your normal stylesheet alongside it, so your site looks the same in IE6 and normal world.
From personal experiance, ie6 can be fixed within a few lines of CSS and a fair bit of inspecting with firebug/developers toolbar.. without the need for conditional comments.
majority of the problems I come accross are padding / margin based and it is down to me not using the best method first time round.
I also find that overflow:hidden fixes its fair share of ie6 bugs too.
i suggest, get ie6 open with the developers toolbar and try and find where the problem lies, and think of a better way to code that section.
Thats just me personally, I use conditional comments as a LAST resort.
Dean Edwards’ ie7.js script (linked by Gordon) is still the state of the art in this area.
As to what’s the best approach, it depends. Dean Edwards’ script fixes a lot of IE CSS bugs, and allows you to use selectors like the multiple class selector and the child selector that aren’t supported at all in IE 6.
If you’re happy that the IE 6 users in your target audience tend to have JavaScript turned on, a library like Dean’s can save you a bunch of time, and allow you to trim down your code by using the selectors that IE 6 doesn’t support.
However, you’ll likely still need an IE 6 stylesheet to deal with issues that Dean’s library doesn’t fix.
The best solution may be to wait for Microsoft to stop supporting IE 6 (like they did with Mac IE 5), because if Microsoft don’t support it, it’s hardly fair for people to expect you to. We‘re currently hoping for 2014 on that score.
Generally, you don't need javascript. You can use plain old CSS. It helps to have a good knowledge of hasLayout though.
More often than not, you can fix IE6 and 7's issues by giving the problem element layout. To do that, give it a fixed height or width, or use the proprietary zoom.
My favoured method of targeting specific versions of IE browser is to use conditional comments to add a <div> as a direct child of <body> which lets me know which version of IE I'm in (like so). That way, I can target IE6 directly:
.IE6 div.fubar {
zoom: 1;
}
The other thing to remember is that it's almost impossible to achieve pixel parity across IE6/7/8/Firefox/Safari/Chrome/Opera, so if some things don't look quite right in a browser that's nearly ten years old, you don't always need to worry about it.
Position is everything has some useful tips on IE bugs, too.
Don't use javascript if you can avoid it - you are not guaranteed that your users have JS activated (as already mentioned) and you actually don't need it.
To get rid of many problems of different interpretations from browsers (not just IE) user a css-reset stylesheet. There are many floating around.
Even better yet, use a CSS framework which will remove many many problems between different browsers and will come with many helpful classes to solve standard issues.
I for one love YAML (http://www.yaml.de/en/home.html), then there's Blueprint (http://www.blueprintcss.org/) and probably a few others. Believe me - once you used a CSS Framework you will never want to go back.
jQuery and its plugins work best for IE6 issues. Give it a try!
I have designed many web-templates. But (except my first one) I've never used browser detection scripts to load corresponding CSS.
I am not sure whether it is a good technique, or just an alternative way (to struggle with a single CSS to satisfy all the browsers)?
It depends on how complex your layout is.
On the whole, there are a set of "problem features" with some browsers, such as the browser not following the border-box model and assigning margin, border and padding values incorrectly.
Many designs aren't affected by the problems and look very similar in all browsers, but if you have a part of your design that has a touch point on one of the issues, it is probably better to extract the "fixes" into a separate stylesheet, rather than pollute your standard CSS with hacks.
You should find that you have
1 Stylesheet for "standards compliant browsers"
and
1 Stylesheet to cater for any issues with the others
If you have more than this, you're creating trouble for yourself and are juat adding to the number of http requests for the page.
Most commonly people use conditional comments in Internet Explorer to load a separate stylesheet for just IE, and a default one for all the others.
More info on MSDN
The best option is to use a css which is compatible for each (major) browser.
So the question is; do you really need browser-specific-css?
If you really need it; you can use:
<!--[if IE 7]> <link rel="stylesheet" ....> <![endif]-->
From my experience I would always try to avoid to really fall into the specific-browser-CSS-trap. Try using CSS-reset-methods and from a fresh start build for a defined set of current browsers. I would rather try to make little changes to the designed layout to get it working as so much time can be saved by that (if it's possible in the project or the designer is cooperative).
Another aspect where it would make sense is an approach like the one Andy Clarke talks about in his nice book (Website http://www.transcendingcss.com/). Use latest tags and all options that make your code and CSS simpler, shorter, more semantic - even if it results in explicitely different look and feels for, e.g. Firefox and IE.
Is it better to have a different CSS file for each user-agent or is it better to use CSS Hacks that only certain browsers can see?
Neither.
The best is to write code that works in all browsers without the need of browser specific code or css hacks. It's of course not quite as easy to accomplish, which is why many people use the other methods.
The key is to avoid things that some browsers (very often Internet Explorer) has problems with. One such thing is to use padding rather than margin, because IE doesn't handle margin collapsing correctly.
Some methods that is in the border line of being hacks is using code that doesn't affect browsers that work correctly, but fixes problems for a specific browser. That could be things like specifying a height for an element that normally shouldn't need one, or specifying display:inline on a floating element.
The page Position is everything has examples of some bugs and suggested fixes. (Often the fix is some kind of hack, so you should of course also consider if you can avoid the problem altogether.)
It's better to do neither.
A good css-reset and css that works the same cross-browser is a much better solution.
If your design absolutely precludes that, then (and only then) would I try hacks or IE conditional comments.
I haven't yet seen the need for mutliple css files (beyond a few IE6 corrections addressed via a conditional comment).
Neither if possible. Now that the old Netscape, IE <= 6 etc. are not longer really that much in use, I try to use features which work in all those browsers (e.g. FF >= 2, IE >= 7, Chrome, Opera).
Conditional comments for issues with Internet Explorer appear to be the norm. Combined with a little bit of JavaScript, like Dean Edward's ie7.js you can mitigate most cross browser issues without resorting to hacks within your CSS files.
its better to use a different css files for Internet Explorer 6-7 (include them via conditional comments), and a hacks for other browsers.
A sort of follow up is how to develop the single file that works.
The best approach that I've seen work is to start from nothing, slowly building it up and checking change by change that it's still compatible across your core browsers (especially the problematic ones).
When you get it fully working with one browser and then say "time to convert it" is when the pain really starts and where you have to start hacking.
My approach using a PHP class to detect os, browser and browser version. You can target any version of almost any browser on any operating system.