I'm wondering if anyone has tried to use Flex to power the front end of an enterprise level application at all, and if so, what advantages/disadvantages did you find when doing so. I'm currently looking into a possible project that would have global users requiring enterprise level access and performance, and wondering if it would be prudent to call upon some of my contractors flex experience with this project.
Flex and Flash is a great tool for enterprise level applications.
Our general rule of thumb is to use Flex or Flash when the type of rich interface required cannot be achieved using html/javascript/ajax. In this event the rich UI in flash/flex should be built keeping in mind that its the "Presentation Layer" and apart from basic front-end validation all the work (server side validation and logic) should be done by the underlying application. I would say that flex/flash should be used ot build component parts of an interface, not the whole interface.
The advantages are mainly in achieving a much richer and more stable interface than html/javascript/ajax type interfaces. In my experience the development time may not neccessarily be quicker, but the end result can be much greater!
The disadvantages I have experienced come in the form of finding the right kind of developers and finding developers to take over projects if contractors are used.
I have been using it for exactly that and, like anything, it has it ups and its down. One thing I have found impressive is its support for SOAP based web services. Your requirements here are very vague - but I would say that using Flex has been a positive experience for me.
There are thousands of production Flex enterprise apps out there. If you are looking for help check out these companies:
Gorilla Logic
Cynergy Systems
Universal Mind
Related
I am after recommendations for a framework (or project template) for rapid application development using C# on the back-end. It must support the following:
User login/authentication
SPA
Responsive client
Easy to understand client and server (not a steep learning curve like AngularJS)
Clean/uncluttered project structure (both client and server). Some OOTB ASP.Net project templates are very cluttered (eg the the VS2012/2013 SPA MVC/Knockout/BackBone template) - maybe I could be convinced, but just looking at a new project it puts me off instantly.
Easy DB access.
Flexibility on the client (for custom functionality eg adding maps and other UI libraries like D3) - don't want a client framework that you have to wrangle to paint outside the lines.
Would appreciate any/all suggestions/opinions.
Thanks
Tim
Like anything in software, there are so many ways to do this. You are essentially asking for a complete system architecture. You could try to be more specific, but your question is going gather opinionated answers and this will probably end up getting closed.
But I'm bored and will throwin a couple of pennies before that happens:
C# most likely means you'll be going .NET on IIS (though maybe its docker on linux?? refer back to my first line above)
User login/authentication
If its IIS, you could be running Windows Auth, or if in an enterprise, Kerberos or Federation. Or if its going against social sites, maybe OAuth? This one depends on what authentication your users need and is really separate of the other areas below.
SPA / Responsive client / Easy to understand...
You listed some very popular frameworks (Angular/Knockout) used in modern SPAs. You may not like them but these are becoming industry standards. Responsive web is pretty much bootstrap or foundation. Though, angular material seems to be gaining popularity too.
Easy DB access.
Whats your definition of easy? Looking for an ORM? If so, Entity Framework is popular in .net apps. Or if you are more of an SQL person, maybe LINQ is easier. Many options here too.
Flexibility on the client ...
Though you may not like some of them, using popular frameworks means you get a lot of developer support behind it - and a lot more answers here on SO if you have problems. One man's sunset is another man's sunrise. What you consider difficult might be viewed as easy by another. Hard to say whats most flexible but going popular means you got more help.
Closed. This question is opinion-based. It is not currently accepting answers.
Want to improve this question? Update the question so it can be answered with facts and citations by editing this post.
Closed 8 years ago.
Improve this question
Our team is divided on this and I wanted to get some third-party opinions.
We are building an application and cannot decide if we want to use .Net WPF Desktop Application with a WCF server, or ASP.Net web app using jQuery. I thought I'd ask the question here, with some specs, and see what the pros/cons of using either side would be. I have my own favorite and feel I am biased.
Ideally we want to build the initial release of the software as fast as we can, then slow down and take time to build in the additional features/components we want later on. Above all we want the software to be fast. Users go through records all day long and delays in loading records or refreshing screens kills their productivity.
Application Details:
I'm estimating around 100 different screens for initial version, with plans for a lot of additional screens being added on later after the initial release.
We are looking to use two-way communication for reminder and event systems
Currently has to support around 100 users, although we've been told to allow for growth up to 500 users
We have multiple locations
Items to consider (maybe not initially in some cases but in future releases):
Room for additional components to be added after initial release (there are a lot of of these... perhaps work here than the initial application)
Keyboard navigation
Performance is a must
Production Speed to initial version
Low maintenance overhead
Future support
Softphone/Scanner integration
Our Developers:
We have 1 programmer who has been learning WPF the past few months and was the one who suggested we use WPF for this.
We have a 2nd programmer who is familiar with ASP.Net and who may help with the project in the future, although he will not be working on it much up until the initial release since his time is spent maintaining our current software.
There is me, who has worked with both and am comfortable in either
We have an outside company doing the project management, and they are an ASP.Net company.
We plan on hiring 1-2 others, however we need to know what direction we are going in first
Environment:
General users are on Windows 2003 server with Terminal Services. They connect using WYSE thin-clients over an RDP connection. Admin staff has their own PCs with XP or higher. Users are allowed to specify their own resolution although they are limited to using IE as the web browser.
Other locations connects to our network over a MPLS connection
Based on that, what would you choose and why?
I am especially interested in hearing from developers who have experience with both ASP.Net and WPf.
Reasons to choose WPF:
Much faster and easier development than ASP.NET and jQuery
Much easier to implement quick incremental background loading of data
Much easier to implement client-side caching of commonly used data (important for remote offices)
More efficient data transfer from server (can use advanced WCF features unavailable to web browser)
Keyboard navigation better, since you can easily define shortcuts, etc, and not be limited by browser
Maintenance overhead much better using MVVM pattern
Softphone integration easy
Reasons to choose ASP.NET and jQuery:
None that I can see
In your scenario I would definitely choose WPF.
First of all, I would sit down and write the business requirements and specifications. It really doesn't matter what tech you use - proper planning will affect your project timeline more than technology choice. This is especially true for an in-house custom built app.
As far as development, I would take the requirements and lay out the backend functionality. I would actually implement the backend in WCF, regardless of the client technology - that way you could use best of both worlds if needed (for example for phone integration you could write a stand-alone WPF app). ASP.NET with jQuery can easily use WCF services (JSON or XML version) together with desktop client.
As far as development of the client forms, this highly depends on developers experience and your future plans. I am not going to go into advantages/disadvantages of developing web software here - there are a ton of articles in the last 10 years about cloud/web based software (for example salesforce). I would rather concentrate on deliverables - what is your team most comfortable with today and in the future. There's a huge difference between WPF and web development, from development standpoint, and it requires completely different experience.
Why not consider a hybrid solution - Silverlight
With Silverlight you get most of the goodness and statefullness of WPF (with almost exactly the same XAML and code), plus you get the deployment characteristics of ASP.NET
Many people consider Silverlight the next step after ASP.NET/AJAX, and it would definitely deliver all of the benefits of WPF relevant to your scenario.
WPF is the way to go, without a doubt. I agree with all that #Ray Burns has said.
Because:
You will get a richer, slicker, faster application.
It will be easier to build1.
Softphone/Scanner (i.e. hardware) integration is going to require browser plugins etc. and this can be a nightmare with a browser based application.
Keyboard navigation is still better with native applications.
IME Maintenance is easier with WPF applications.
Definitely use WCF to provide the backend via The Entity Framework, see The Entity Framework In Layered Architectures. You can do have a better integration with the backend in a native application because it can be called inline - no need for callbacks or ajax. I've built components for WPF that are linked via EF to the business logic to provide aware controls for simple stuff like validation. It's stunningly good to drop a customer name field onto a form and it just works.
To add additional components you need to build it with a proper well thought out plugin architecture. This is the same in both environments. I've got some thoughts on this I jotted down in my journal entitled Designing a plugin architecture for an application
When building a WPF application you will be writing in one language (e.g. C#) + markup (XAML). When building asp.net you endup with two languages + markup, as you always have to code some Javascript.
So, based on your requirements it has be to WPF / WCF (EF). A web based application will be a lot more work, more complexity, and not be as nice.
About 12 months ago I was fortunate enough to be given a free hand to choose the technology for a new application. I spent almost a month evaluating all of the options and came to the conclusion that it had to be C#, WPF, Entity Framework. After writing the application I can confirm that it was the right choice...
1. It will still be easier even if your programmers have to learn WPF first. WPF is much better thought out, great and lovely. very lovely. It just works right.
Hi
I think The question at issue is Windows-application or Web application(WPF for win-app VS asp for web-app), Which one is better for you and your project?. In this case your platform is network and your program must work on the net. so for this usage Web-app is better but there are a lot points existing which can make decisions hard. Network platform has great challenge.(according to my personal experience)
Working with web-app by asp.net is nearly hard. you must try to handle many thing's for web-app(request time, session management, even poor UI in comparison to WPF, j-query, etc ). Remember this is not as easy as simple web site.
But win-app is good for network with this condition: "local network"(mpls is almost the same). Absolutely developing win-app is easier than web-app ("At least number of users expert in net-program developing"). for this case WPF has many good things(UI , command, etc) also has many challenging point(like multi-threading and lack of expert developer in this field ) . I'm rather with wpf than asp but decisions is yours
And chalk point to good thing Silverlight but if you want to use this you must look at prism framework : http://compositewpf.codeplex.com/
I have recently developed a project separately with asp and silverlight(prism framework). developing silver-light version is too hard and takes more time than asp.net version but at the end SL-ver have great look nothing else!
Burns pointed to good issues about wpf. also consider Artemiy's post. your environment conditions is same for both of them. WPF/ASP can work with scanner and soft-phone cuz the base of both is on C# and .net library
Finally what ever your decisions is you must hire advance developer at least develop one business-app for the network platform.
Is your app a desktop app or web app.
If Desktop wpf is best.
If web based asp.net is best.
Don't front load your development with your get it up quick scenario. That never works well and results in a sloppy deployment. Take your time, cover all the steps (Business Requirements, System Design, Program Design, Code, TEST and TEST some more, Deployment)
Some points to be made for ASP.NET:
The pool of ASP.NET developers is much larger then the pool of WPF developers.
Which means you can probably find qualified ASP.NET developers easier.
ASP.NET is probably more future proof, chances of WPF getting large changes and being hard to port to later versions is probably larger.
Also keep in mind that the focus of MS seems to be on Silverlight so there might be a consolidation down the road which makes WPF obsolete.
More mature eco system of ASP.NET makes for more out of the box solutions to use to solve problems.
With multiple locations you might be able to skip a few layers and go directly to a website?
There is the requirement, to write a portal like ASP.NET based web application.
There should be a lightweigted central application, which implements the primary navigation and the authentication. The design is achieved by masterpages.
Then there are several more or less independent applications(old and new ones!!), which should easily and independent be integrated into this central application (which should be the entry point of these applications).
Which ways, architectures, patterns, techniques and possibilities can help and support to achieve these aims? For example makes it sense to run the (sub)applications in an iframe?
Are there (lightweighted and easy to learn) portal frameworks, which can be used (not big things like "DOTNETNUKE")?
Many thanks in advance for you hints, tips and help!
DON'T REINVENT THE WHEEL! The thing about DotNetNuke is that it can be as big or as small as you make it. If you use it properly, you will find that you can limit it to what you need. Don't put yourself through the same pain that others have already put themselves through. Unless of course you are only interested in learning from your pain.
I'm not saying that DNN is the right one for you. It may not be, but do spend the time to investigate a number of open source portals before you decide to write your own one. The features that you describe will take 1000s of hours to develop and test if you write them all from scratch.
#Michael Shimmins makes some good suggests about what to use to implement a portal app with some of the newer technology and best practice patterns. I would say, yes these are very good recommendations, but I would encourage you to either find someone who has already done it this way or start a new open source project on codeplex and get other to help you.
Daniel Dyson makes a fine point, but if you really want to implement it your self (there may be a reason), I would consider the following components:
MVC 2.0
Inversion of Control/Dependency Injection (StructureMap for instance)
Managed Extensibility Framework
NHibernate (either directly or through a library such as Sh#rp or Spring.NET
A service bus (NServiceBus for instance).
This combination gives you flexible user interface through MVC, which can be easily be added to via plugins (exposed and consumed via MEF), a standard data access library (NHibernate) which can be easily configured by the individual plugins to connect to specific databases, an ability to publish events and 'pick them up' by components composed at runtime (NServiceBus).
Using IoC and DI you can pass around interfaces which are resolved at runtime based on your required configuration. MEF gives you the flexibility of defining 'what' each plugin can do, and then leave it up to the plugins to do so, whilst your central application controls cross cutting concerns such as authentication, logging etc.
I came across the Adobe Flex framework one day. After watching http://www.adobe.com/products/flex/media/flexapp/'> the demo of Flex, it looks to me it is a bundle of different Ajax controls. I have no working knowledge of Flex at all and know very little about Flex. Therefore, I would like to hear from the developers here with some Flex experience to explain a bit more pros and cons of this Framework. In particular:
How productive it is to program in Flex compared to the .Net + Silverlight?
Any technical advantages over other frameworks?
Any disadvantages ?
Does it have any known scaling issues?
What kind of web servers can it be hosted on?
Any other things I should be aware of about Flex?
How productive it is to program in Flex compared to the .Net + Silverlight?
Way more productive than Silverlight as it has a much richer and capable control library. Silverlight is rapidly gaining ground here though. I think by the time SL 4 comes out they will reach feature parity, maybe even SL 3.
Any technical advantages over other frameworks?
If you can create it in Photoshop, you can pretty much do it in Flex with the help of the Flash drawing API. If you want to build very interesting data visualizations (tree/node diagrams, such as an org chart) you can do this Flex without a ton of work.
Any disadvantages ?
There is no server-side component to ActionScript so you need to find a way to pass data between Flex and your backend, be it Java, .NET, PHP, etc. There are libraries out there to AMF remoting with just about any backend which makes it easy. But as far as the objects you pass between the two, you need to maintain both or use a code generation tool to create AS3 classes from your backend classes.
Does it have any known scaling issues?
Flex is simply a presentation technology so this question doesn't really apply.
What kind of web servers can it be hosted on?
Again, only a presentation technology. It compiles out to a SWF file that is loaded by the browser over HTTP and then executes inside of the Flash Player plugin.
Well ~~ .. it's more that Silverlight is similar to Flex. It's not Ajax so much as a kind of 'walled-garden' inside of which you have a rich programming environment. Somewhat like Java apps say.
The usual criticism derives from just that. Flex/Flash applications tend to be ignorant of the browser (more or less) so that stuff like back-button usually gives unexpected results.
It'll run on all the current browsers on all platforms. You don't need to "host" flex as you build a SWF file that gets loaded into the browser and is executed by the Flash Player which your users are expected to have already downloaded/installed .. (95+%) penetration helps.
I've been using Flex for the last year or so and it's served my purposes well. It can be integrated nicely with javascript stuff on your web pages and provides a very rich set of capabilities for doing all sorta things like web-services and XML processing and of course all your video/audio/music rich media.
The language is ActionScript 3. Which is fundamentally a strict superset of javascript. You can use javascript as-is. (ActionScript was intended - by Adobe - to be next-gen javascript.)
It can compiled in two modes. One is for hosting in a browser as web app, using the Flash runtime object to provide granular GUI controls.
Or it can be compiled in desktop mode, where it uses another runtime (named AIR) to operate interchangeably on Windows, Mac, or Linux.
I wouldn't compare it to Ajax. It's more like .NET, if .NET didn't have such a disparity between desktop.NET and ASP.NET. Pretend ASP.NET offered a desktop runtime, maybe. (Not a bad idea, actually).
Like a lot of non-MS technology, it tends to be basic yet cover the important capabilities. More conceptual integrity, IMHO. About the same scale, scope, and complexity as VB6 and useful for about the same set of tasks, for about the same audience of developers and users. Yes, it's got good database connectivity too.
We need to build an administration portal website to support our client/server application. Since we're a .Net shop the obvious traditional way would be to do that in ASP.Net. But Silverlight 2 will be coming out of beta a good while before our release date. Should we consider building the whole website in silverlight instead, with a supporting WCF backend?
The main function of the portal will be: users, groups and permissions configuration; user profile settings configuration; file upload and download for files needed to support the application.
I think the main reason for taking this approach would be that we have good experience with WPF and WCF, but little experience in ASP.Net. Either way we would have to learn ASP.Net or Silverlight, and learning Silverlight seems a more natural extension of our current skills.
Are there any big no-nos from the experience of StackOverflowers? What are the big positives?
I would recommend against building a pure Silverlight site.
Silverlight suffers from the same issues as Flash does: Unintuitive Bookmarking, issues with printing, accessibility issues, not working back buttons and so on.
Also, you would require your users to have Silverlight installed or at least to have the ability to install it.
In controlled environements (eg. in large companies or health care) or on mobile devices, this might not be the case.
I would definitely go for a full Silverlight application, specially if you have good experience from WPF. You will be able to reuse your knowledge from WPF, and should be able to pick up Silverlight fairly quickly. I've been working with Silverlight since Beta 1, and the current Beta 2 is of solid quality. I guess it's safe to assume that a RTW version is just around the corner.
Pilf has some valid point, specially around printing. For that I would probably use SQL Reporting Services, or some other reporting framework, on the server side, and then pop up a new window with printable reports. For linking and bookmarking the issues are no different than any other AJAX application. I did a blog post today about how to provide deep linking and back-forward navigation in Silverlight.
Silverlight also has all the hooks needed for great accessibility support, as the UI Automation API from WPF is brought into Silverlight. I don't know if the screen reader vendors have caught up yet. The styling/template support in Silverlight makes it easy to provide high-contrast skins for visual impaired users if that is a concern.
Depends on your goals. If administration portal is part of application and will only be used from computers where your application is installed, there are plenty of advantages of going fully Silverlight - or even WPF.
But if you can see a scenario where it will be used either from random PC or by random person, fully functional HTML/Javascript version is absolutely necessary.
Some reasons are:
Most people don't have silverlight and you'll earn a good load of swearing if they have to download and install it. Some people who have it installed keep it disabled (together with flash and sometimes even images) to avoid distractions and speed up browsing.
When HTML site fails, user gets error page and reloads. When silverlight fails, it can hang or crash.
HTML is what is expected - both by users and web browsers: back and refresh buttons work as they should, hyperlinks and forms work as expected.
Slow internet is still very common, both in remote areas and mobile devices.
I agree with what everyone had said so far and I think this Flow Chart, which is aimed at Flash, also applies to Silverlight.
Source of Image
It sounds like your problem is that you need a rich-client admin application. Why not use click-once?
On the topic of remote andministrators, another poster stated that was an argument in favor of HTML if the admins were on a slow connection. I would argue that depending on the type of information, it may be more efficient to use Silverlight. If you have an ASP.NET datagrid populated with server side data binding, you can be downloading a ton of markup and viewstate data. Even if you're using an alrternative to DataGrid that's lighter on the ViewState, you will still have a lot of HTML to download.
In Silverlight, once you get the XAP down, which is probably going to be smaller than the corresponding HTML, the XAP is cached and so you shouldn't have that cost every time, and you'll just be retrieving the data itself.
For another example, let's say you have a bunch of dropdown lists on one of your forms which all have the same values in the list. In Silverlight, you can get these values once and bind them to all of the dorpdowns, in HTML you will have to repeat them each time.
This will get better with client side data binding in ASP.NET, which follows a very similar model to Silverlight and WPF for data binding.
Overall, I would also think that you would need to write less code for the Silverlight implementation which can increase productivity and reduce maintenace costs.
ASP all the way. You should only use silverlight/flash etc when text can't do what you want it to do - e.g. display video.
Using a plugin for your website makes it slow, and requires the user to have the plugin installed. Silverlight for instance rules out all Linux user. Also, since Silverlight is pretty new, there is no telling how committed Microsoft will be to keep the platform alive if it doesn't pick up soon.
I'd stick to plain old HTML with server side scripting.
Also, for public websites: Flash and Silverlight can't be indexed by any search engine, so good luck with writing tons of metadata if you want any visitors at all.
Silverlight is a good choice for an internal-facing portal, just as it would be for a public-facing portal if you've already evaluated your project and have decided to go forward with a web portal. You are free to integrate Silverlight components within an existing ASP.NET application (i.e. the "islands of richness") approach, but if you have the ability to build a new project from scratch, don't discount a completely Silverlight solution as a valid choice where you would have went with a traditional ASP.NET portal. Silverlight is RTW now, so if this decision is still on the table, you know you won't have to deal with breaking changes going forward.
There are some downsides with developing a site completely in Flash / Silverlight, but if those downsides won't matter to you or won't have an impact then there is nothing stopping you. Choose whatever tool you think meets your needs more fully. I wouldn't be put off creating a site purely in Silverlight based on the downsides, because it brings a lot more positives to the user experience.
The previous comments have dealt with most of the downsides of using Silverlight for a site like this and I agree. If you're determined to have rich-client style development and your audience is small (for admins only) then I'd probably recommend WPF over Silverlight as it currently provides a richer set of tools and controls.
If you stick with ASP.NET have you looked at Dynamic Data - it's ideal for building backend management sites with little effort.
I've seen "Silverlight only" websites at Microsoft and they are pretty impressive. But again, the demos were there to exploit the full potential of what Silverlight can do. The moment you need something different you may be out of luck. I don't see Silverlight like Flash except in the way they are installed/seen. But the Flash/ActionScript backend is really bad compared to what Visual Studio can offer with .NET
Ask yourself why would you like to use Silverlight? Fancy effects or programming model?