I work in a Microsoft environment, so I can use my C# hammer on any nails I come across. That being said, what languages (compiled, interpreted, scripting, functional, any types!) complement knowing C#, and for what purposes? For example, I've moved a lot of script functionality away from compiled console apps and into Powershell scripts. If you're an MS developer, have you found a niche in your world for other languages like F#, IronRuby, IronPython, or something similar, and what niche do they fill?
Note: this question is directed at the Microsoft dev people since I can't run off and start installing LAMP stacks around my company, and therefore having to support it forever. :) However, feel free to mention any other languages that you found interesting to fulfill a certain task/role in your world apart from your main language.
Python/Perl/Ruby/PowerShell are great supplements to C#/VB.NET. If your boss hands you a text file and says insert it into the database once or twice, then any of Perl/Python/Ruby (I'm not sure about powershell but I imagine it is not that much more difficult) should be fine to parse it. Either way, for your main applications you will probably be stuck in C#. You can use one of the more dynamic languages to do code generation in C#.
Since you are in a Microsoft Environment, probably your best chance at getting your solution accepted is PowerShell. Next to that I'd say IronPython or something else that integrates with the CLR. But main issue is that for someone else to maintain what you do, they would have to know whatever language you are using. MS in the future has plans to use PowerShell a lot more, so it is probably easier to justify PowerShell then say Python/Perl/Ruby.
If you are just processing a text file for one time use. Or creating a one time code generator to generate all the code and then intend to maintain the generated code, then it doesn't matter. You are the one who will consume the results and if you save time using Perl then more power to you. But if you are doing something that will be used over and over again (like an active code generator where you change the templates and run the generator instead of maintaining the generated code) then other developers working on what you did will need to know the language you used. It is much harder to argue learning Perl/Ruby/Python in a Microsoft Shop. But PowerShell seems like the easier argument. I think the MS grand plan is that eventually applications will expose more functionality for power shell through commandlets. Assuming this happens then PowerShell is even more of a no-brainer because it will expose tons of scriptable functionality that you won't get any other way.
A nice scripting language is always a good tool to have on you belt. See Ruby, or Python.
I use python for prototyping, since there's almost no turn around time between edits and actually running the new version of the code. I may even end up using it for a real project - the more I use it, the more I like it.
It will take some getting used to as a C# programmer, though - the indentation-defines-structure system it uses is a little weird at first.
Since you are in a MS shop, I would suggest PowerShell as a decent scripting language to learn. It plays well with C#.
I'm a big fan of Ruby too.
I'd like to second or third python. Specifically, IronPython (ttp://www.codeplex.com/Wiki/View.aspx?ProjectName=IronPython) lets you learn python but also gives you access to the .net framework goodies.
It's quite nice for scripting-related tasks so it'll probably be useful for your day-to-day coding life, and also a nice way to muck around in an experimental coding/prototyping way.
While it's a bit of a fringe language, I'm compelled to mention Erlang. Erlang is an excellent language to have in your toolbox since it's unusual strengths tend to compliment other programming platforms. Erlang is very useful for building distributed, concurrent, fault-tolerant systems. It's used a lot in the instant-messaging and telephony world where there's a need for distributed, yet interconnected architectures.
Maybe play around with Boo and see what you think.
Boo at Codehaus.org
Boo at Wikipedia
If your using the .Net framework the language is really not important as the compiler and interpreter create the same IL code in any case.
If you step away from the .Net world, I am of the opinion that development tools and languages are a tool box. I strive to use the right tools for the job at hand, taking into consideration what the skill base of the other developers are and what direction a company is seeking of course (I'm a consultant).
I'm with jjnguy. Try one of the scripting languages. Plus as a bonus, when you learn Ruby/PythonPearl, etc...it's a gateway drug...err language to developing for other environments.
Trying out languages outside of your normal toolbox will give you new ways of approaching things in your current favorite language. Even if you don't use them for serious projects languages like Perl (for data mangling), Lisp (functional programming), and Javascript (prototype based programming) will teach you new ways to think about problems in your current language.
As a web developer by trade, you might look into the XSLT/XPath family as for certain types of XML processing they can be very powerful tools.
Granted, in C# 3.x Linq2Xml exposes some similar functionality inline.
XSLT, however, can be a powerful way to separate data from presentation in your apps.
I am very interested in F# and some of the other new languages in the CLR/DLR. The DLR languages might be a lot better for your UI, because they don't make you cast a lot of stupid things.
However, I think that it is important to keep in mind tha learning a new language, especially in a new area, like functional programming, is always a good way to re-train your mind so that you are exposed to new concepts and you can code better in your language of choice, even if you never use those new languages.
Check out Boo - it runs on top of the .NET stack, but its syntax is more like Python.
To learn a new language that complements C#, I'd go with C++. You can use it in a 'way better than p/invoke' style to get access to unmanaged code from your C# apps. You can then start using it to write the memory-constrained apps, and/or performance-critical bits in, if you find some of your .NET applications start hogging all the RAM and/or CPU or just generally aren't as fast as you'd like.
Related
I am currently considering writing a small game. It is essentially a map where you can zoom out and in, and in certain places click on info boxes where, at some point, I hope to integrate minigames. Granted, game might be overstating it. Think of it as an interactive map. The theme is how mathematics can be applied in peoples every day life to raise awareness on the usefullness of mathematics.
The question is how I as fast as possible can make a reasonable prototype. If I recieve enough positive response on this I might try to code "the real thing" and use the prototype to obtain funding.
However, I am at a crossroad. I want something to work rather fast and have some C++ experience coding optimization problems, mainly in c-style. I am not convienced, though, that coding it in C++ is the fast way to obtain a prototype. Though I have some experience coding in C++, but have no experience in coding any sort of GUI.
As I see it there is a number of possibilites:
C++, possibly using some library, such as boost or ???.
Start out purely webbased, using e.g. HTML 5 and java.
Python
C#/.NET
Others, such as?
I have to admit I have little experience with anything besides C++ and the STL.
So my question to this wonderful forum is basically, is there a language that provides a significant advantage? Also, any additional insight or comments is more than welcome!
Python is a simpler language than C++, and for prototyping it will help you focus on the task at hand. You can use Pygame, a game library built on the excellent cross-platform SDL library. It provides 2D graphics, input, and audio mixing features. SDL is mainly a C library (and thus compatible with C++), and there are a number of very useful libraries that integrate with it:
SDL_image for loading images in various formats
SDL_ttf for rendering text using TrueType fonts
SDL_mixer for audio mixing
SDL_net for networking
SDL_gfx for graphics drawing primitives
So if you prototype in Python using Pygame, there is a reasonable chance you’ll be able to port what you make over to C++ with minimal hassle, if and when you choose to do so.
Possible options:
Go with what you know the best. Anything else will require a learning curve, which may be weeks to months long. If you're willing to take that road in order to make your prototype, then there are some really great tools available.
BlitzBasic is a good way to go, and is basically designed to be for games
I've done little games in Java using Slick2D - but you'll need good grounding in object-oriented coding to work effectively in Java. If you've got that from C++, then you can see a tech demo I built in Slick2D called Pedestrians. It's open source, and has demo videos here.
You might also ask your question on https://gamedev.stackexchange.com/ - a Q/A site dedicated to game programming
I would like to try developing ASP.NET and ASP.NET MVC apps in F#. I enjoy using functional langauges, and to my mind the functional paradigm fits better with HTTP and the web than imperative programming (though of course F# can do both).
I am only intending on trying F# for some personal projects, though I hope that eventually F# will be seen as a valid alternative to C# for suitable commercial ASP.NET projects.
What pitfalls and rough edges are there currently for using F# with ASP.NET? One obvious disadvantage is that F# is much more obscure than C#, so there are less code samples and experienced programmers for F#.
What other potential issues should I be aware of?
Personally I am a big fan of F#. My NDjango parser/rendering engine is written in F#.
But trying to do everything in F# can be difficult. To add to your list of the things which are not there yet:
There is no support for visual
designers - neither webforms nor
winforms. You can write the
appropriate code manually, of course
No Code Completion
Debugging in F# can be a challenge, in particular because of anonymous closures
Compiler Diagnostics can be misleading because of type inference - one typo can have profound impact in far away places
My biggest pet peeve is the 'file order matter' rule. You have to specify the order in which the files will be compiled
By no means this is a complete list. On the other end one might hope that some of these points will be addressed in final release.
Despite of all of the listed (and unlisted) problems I enjoy programming in F# - sometimes it gives a very refreshing perspective on the coding and I already started using some of the tricks inspired by F# in my C# code.
Just do not go crazy in it
Is this a home project or a work thing? If it's for work, you need to consider the ability of somebody else to drop in and maintain your code - there aren't too many F# developers out there when compared to competent C# people.
mmmmm f#, the other white meat that dare speak its name. Go for it, F# as Mr Kay would say "its the future!". As for the pitfall...puh!, what pitfalls, you just create stuff that works without chuff and Objects.
C# is great and it has its place. But as you correctly pointed out it does not suite web programming. In that matter neither does the event smoke and mirrors that ASP.net provides.
Go lower. Think HttpHandlers and REST. You don't need the MVC stuff. Its and Idea and not a product.
The front end GUI has nothing to do with the backend. Do you really need ASP.net? JSON/REST/POX.....develop your middle layer with these in mind and you should be ok. Stay away from WCF its propriety and nasty.
as for the comment of maintainable code. Trail blaze. why be what you don't want to be. If they don't think like you, then do you want them around?
When I work on projects the ideas drive the product not the technology and certainly not the masses or the mob. Large organizations cater for the mob for one reason only, and it has nothing to do with advancing the art and all about the Euro.
Messages and pipes are what I would use in this current climate. Events are great when the environment supports it, but does the async nature of the web lend itself to thinking of a processing pipe with clock ticks and checking if things have been done.
.Net good for one thing. middle layer with DB and logic. As for the front. Use something else. More webby.
Why just F# bring in the whole shooting match of best in class. plenty to choose from php, python, ruby,clojure, haskell etc....
F# is more than what it is, but what it represents, an old way of thinking in new and desperate times of multi-core multi-threading, multi-process.
As a song I once listened to said "I don't care about their different thoughts
Different thoughts are good for me"
http://codebetter.com/blogs/matthew.podwysocki/archive/2008/10/06/asp-net-mvc-with-nhaml-f-edition.aspx
http://cs.hubfs.net/forums/thread/6270.aspx
I need some help comparing different programming languages, such as: C++, Java, Python, Ruby and PHP, for a task which is related for web data mining (developing web crawler, string manipulations and etc.). I have a bit experience with PHP, and I think advantages that it has for this particular task are simple syntax, in-depth string parsing capabilities, networking functions, and portability, but don't know much about other languages and their advantages and disadvantages related for this particular task.
The specific language will not matter nearly as much as your familiarity. These days, all high-level languages will come with the basics. Unless you need it to be super-fast (you're probably going to be limited by download speed, not the speed that you parse the HTML) or have other constraints not listed, the language won't matter that much.
Just make sure that you use the libraries. In particular an HTML parsing library that is good with invalid markup (not an XML parser) and regular expressions where appropriate.
As a previous post implies - being familiar makes a big difference. I would also say look at what the language was originally designed to do - it gives a good idea of what its best at.
PHP - designed for server side scripting, not really ideal for this use.
Perl - Designed to pull text apart (good start) and excellent libraries - look at LWP and the modules under HTML such as HTML::Treebuilder - a good choice. Unrivalled selection of modules to plugin.
Python - A good choice, look at beautifulsoup and urllib
Ruby - also a good choice, look at hpricot a lot less mature than Perl or Python in terms of modules available.
I have written quite a bit of web spider/data mining software and have always used Perl. If I was starting from scratch today I might choose python.
Google's first crawler was written in Python 1.5
I'm no expert on other languages, but I would go with python and html5lib or Beautifulsoup.
Are there any real world applications written in the Clean programming language? Either open source or proprietary.
This is not a direct answer, but when I checked last time (and I find the language very interesting) I didn't find anything ready for real-world.
The idealist in myself always wants to try out new languagages, very hot on my list (apart from the aforementioned very cool Clean Language) is currently (random order) IO, Fan and Scala...
But in the meantime I then get my pragmatism out and check the Tiobe Index. I know you can discuss it, but still: It tells me what I will be able to use in a year from now and what I possibly won't be able to use...
No pun intended!
I am using Clean together with the iTasks library to build websites quite easy around workflows.
But I guess another problem with Clean is the lack of documentation and examples: "the Clean book" is from quite a few years back, and a lot of new features don't get documented except for the papers they publish.
http://clean.cs.ru.nl/Projects page doesn't look promising :) It looks like just another research project with no real-world use to date.
As one of my professors at college has been involved in the creation of Clean, it was no shock he'd created a real world application. The rostering-program of our university was created entirely in Clean.
The Clean IDE and the Clean compiler are written in Clean. (http://wiki.clean.cs.ru.nl/Download_Clean)
Cloogle, a search engine for Clean libraries, syntax, etc. (like Hoogle for Haskell) is written in Clean. Its source is on Radboud University's GitLab instance (web frontend; engine).
I was using a CASE called MAGIC for a system I'm developing, I've never used this kind of tool before and at first sight I liked, a month later I had a lot of the application generated, I felt very productive and ... I would say ... satisfied.
In some way a felt uncomfortable, cause, there is no code and everything I was used to, but in the other hand I could speed up my developing. The fact is that eventually I returned to use C# because I find it more flexible to develop, I can make unit testing, use CVS, I have access to more resources and basically I had "all the control". I felt that this tool didn't give me confidence and I thought that later in the project I could not manage it due to its forced established rules of development. And also a lot of things like sending emails, using my own controls, and other things had their complication, it seemed that at some point it was not going to be as easy as initially I thought and as initially the product claims. This reminds me a very nice article called "No Silver Bullet".
This CASE had its advantages but on the other hand it doesn't have resources you can consult and actually the license and certification are very expensive. For me another dissapointing thing is that because of its simplistic approach for development I felt scared on first hand cause of my unexperience on these kind of tools and second cause I thought that if I continued using it maybe it would have turned to be a complex monster that I could not manage later in the project.
I think it's good to use these kind of solutions to speed up things but I wonder, why aren't these programs as popular as VS.Net, J2EE, Ruby, Python, etc. if they claim to enhance productivity better than the tools I've pointed?
We use a CASE tool at my current company for code generation and we are trying to move away from it.
The benefits that it brings - a graphical representation of the code making components 'easier' to pick up for new developers - are outweighed by the disadvantges in my opinion.
Those main disadvantages are:
We cannot do automatic merges, making it close to impossible for parallel development on one component.
Developers get dependant on the tool and 'forget' how to handcode.
Just a couple questions for you:
How much productivity do you gain compared to the control that you use?
How testable and reliant is the code you create?
How well can you implement a new pattern into your design?
I can't imagine that there is a CASE out there that I could write a test first and then use a CASE to generate the code I need. I'd rather stick to resharper which can easily do my mundane tasks and retain full control of my code.
The project I'm on originally went w/ the Oracle Development Suite to put together a web application.
Over time (5+ years), customer requirements became more complex than originally anticipated, and the screens were not easily maintainable. So, the team informally decided to start doing custom (hand coded) screens in web PL/SQL, instead of generating them using the Oracle Development Suite CASE tools (Oracle Designer).
The Oracle Report Builder component of the Development Suite is still being used by the team, as it seems to "get the job done" in a timely fashion. In general, the developers using the Report Builder tool are not very comfortable coding.
In this case, it seems that the productivity aspect of such CASE tools is heavily dependent on customer requirements and developer skill sets/training/background.
Unfortunaly the Magic tool doesn't generates code and also it can't implement a design pattern. I don't have control over the code cause as i stated before it doesn't have code to modify. Te bottom line is that it can speed up productivity in some way but it has the impossibility to user CVS, patterns also and I can't control all the details.
I agree with gary when he says "it seems that the productivity aspect of such CASE tools is heavily dependent on customer requirements and developer skill sets/training/background" but also I can't agree more with Klelky;
Those main disadvantages are:
1. We cannot do automatic merges, making it close to impossible for parallel development on one component.
2.Developers get dependant on the tool and 'forget' how to handcode.
Thanks