As I am a novice in web development field,I wanted to clarify some questions running in my head.
1. I want to make a website with dynamic features with or without pluggins.Dynamic features can be like anything under the sun.Is it possible that I can make a website using Wordpress(which is mostly considered as blogging platform).
2.Should I learn any of the frameworks like Django or rails,if yes why(its obvious I would have to learn CSS,Ajax,Javascript,PHP)?
3.I don't want to learn drupal as its time for learning curve is very higher than that of wordpress.(Yes I can think of Joomla,but I don't know how much time it takes to learn from scratch as compared to wordpress)
4.Again I want to repeat, the dynamic features can be like anything under the sun whatever I can think of.Will it be fully customizable after I get my hands perfectly on learning some languages and frameworks.I know there are many pluggins and themes in Wordpress.
5.I also want to make a rich platform for advertisement which will be commercial.Is it possible that I make a model of advertisement which is in my mind which can link to any other websites,blogs,people(users).
In regards to your question about learning frameworks, if you're completely new to web design, I would have to highly suggest the PHP route... it's much much easier to learn and is a lot less complicated that Django. The problems and ideas you come up with during have been encountered 1000 times before and are usually easily search-able and fix-able.
The short answer to your long question is, yes, WordPress is a good place to start. As a relative beginner it will help you create a simple website at first, but will allow you to add complexity as your coding skills and knowledge of the platform increase. If you want to create Software as a Service applications, you should choose something else to get into (Ruby on Rails or asp.net would be good choices), but if you just want to create a nice, complex, dynamic website WordPress is a great way to go.
So to answer your questions specifically 1.Yes. 2. You don't need to to begin. 3. Not a question, but I basically agree. 4. Wordpress will not limit you much initially. It will limit you more than, say, Ruby on Rails, but it will probably take your coding skills years to "outgrow" WordPress. 5. That should be fine.
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I have been asked to convert an entire site that is currently using wordpress to Plone 4.1. I have no experience using Plone and I was wondering if anyone has attempted this before? I had a look and can't find much information about converting to Plone and I was wondering if anyone had come across some good advice? This does seem like a rather big task...
Thanks,
Fraser
Yes, someone already performed that specific migration:
http://davisagli.com/blog/notes-on-migrating-this-blog-from-wordpress-to-plone
As the author says, another approach to this task it's :
http://pypi.python.org/pypi/collective.transmogrifier
Adam Terry will be giving a talk on the easy way of converting sites like this in 2 days at the Plone Conference in San Francisco. I would recommend attending (for many reasons, not just that talk).
Failing that, the short summary of the talk is two tools.
Diazo (or now called plone.app.theming) - Makes replicating an existing theme much easier.
and
Funnelweb (which does all the collective.transmogrifier stuff for you) - Makes coverting all the content easier.
Note: this is an approach for any site, not just wordpress. It relies on webcrawling a site. An approach which directly reads the database, if you have access, might be easier and cleaner.
This is a massive task, not difficult, but time consuming. Its not really a question that can be answered on stackoverflow, but i can point you in the right direction of some decent doco.
Here is a good place to start - http://noenieto.com/blog/theming-plone-4
Beware, Plones theming engine is very different to anything you will have experienced before. If i was you I would firstly create a static template of your theme and build on that. I have been developing plone skins for 5+ years now, and i always start with a static theme.
Many plone developers are using Diazo / Deliverance to develop plone themes, maybe take a look at those too...
Good luck, im afraid you're going to need it!
i am a hobby programmer with very little experience in web programming, i devote an average f 20-30 hours a week, but with summers coming i have some free time to experiment and learn. could anyone please tell me, whether a framework like (Kohana/cakePHP/CI) should be used or directly a CMS tool like drupal/joomla should be used to make a website something like stackoverflow, on a smaller scale though.
Thanks for your help.
It depends on what you want to learn. Depends on your goal.
Is it webdevelopment you wish to learn? CSS? Webdesign? Programming? Building sites?
If your goal is the site itself, I would suggest to start high up in the stack: use a ready-to-go CMS, such as Drupal, that gets you going fast. And that offers a (production ready) result in a few hours. Your downside will be freedom: sure Drupal can do a lot, so can Wordpress. But unless you move down in the stack (develop addons and such) you will have to do with what you are offered: ready made components that work according to the authors wish. Possibly not your wish.
If your goal is to learn webdevelopment in a more general way, you should start lower down in the stack. Ruby on Rails or Django are probably the best options. Simply because of their vast resource on newbie documentation. You will learn programming along the way there too. Within a few days you will have built a site according to your exact wishes (obviously, your milage may vary, depending on the wishes:)).
If your goal is development of software, Python and Ruby are most probably a good start too: both are cross-platform, have good newbie resources and offer great documentation. Both are really well (opinions may differ on this) abstraction and object orientation. They will form you into a good programmer, simply by their nature.
There's a Stackoverflow clone called Qwench that is free.
(search stackoverflow for open source stackoverflow clones)
and one built on drupal http://drupal.org/project/arrayshift
Wordpress can act very much like Stackoverflow with a proper template. See here: http://p2theme.com/ (demo here: http://p2demo.wordpress.com/). Actually you can than start editing the theme (.php files) and make it behave more and more like Stackoverflow (with reputation system etc. which should be easy to implement). This way you won't be reinventing the wheel and have a good headstart.
I personally use CodeIgniter and love it. I would recommend it to any novice looking to further their knowledge of object oriented programming, and any veterans looking to get their projects off the ground quicker. I am not going to go into great detail here, because I know Kohana and CakePHP are similar, and its mostly opinion. CI does have great documentation though.
I think learning the most common CMS is going to be hugely beneficial to you, tons of sites and companies use WP/Drupal/Joomla/Etc and it really can't hurt to understand them. These projects are very large, so you don't necessarily need to know their internal operations 100%, but you should know enough to be able to install, customize and get a site up and running fairly quickly.
Everyone has their favorites, but I invite you to try them all and see what moves you. It will NEVER hurt to learn something and not use it, especially with some extra time.
There are times to use a packaged CMS and hopefully be able to theme/customize it to what you need quickly...then there are times you will want to code a special case by hand using a framework.
Just understand the depth of the project you want to undertake, because starting from scratch is fun and rewarding, but once you get neck deep in code and get stuck its easy to lose motivation all together.
I would suggest learning the basics of HTML before diving in to using a content management system. The importance of understanding the basic building blocks of websites can't be overstated.
There are loads of resources online to learning about HTML - once you've got some experience with that, you can look at CSS, Javascript, and server-side scripting languages. Knowing the basics will help with using any content management system.
Joomla / Drupal are a good place to start with content management systems, as is Wordpress, but you'd be much better off learning how it works underneath (at least to the most basic extent) before diving in to anything else.
If you're already a programmer you won't find it too hard, but it's definitely worth doing.
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I am a novice for both concrete5 and drupal however I have been looking at Concrete5 and Drupal. I am looking to create a web application that needs to be extensible. Client requirement will start from basic content management and it will need to extend to workflow based web application. I have been looking at the architecture for Drupal and Concrete5. For those who haved used either one which one would you recommend? Thanks in advance.
My two cents... Concrete 5 is far superior to Drupal.
I have over 25 sites using C5 right now. I have had 4 drupal installs in the past and have converted all of them to C5. I have also used Joomla, Expression Engine and PyroCMS extensively.
When I first started using C5, there were some great advantages for my customers in terms of end user updates to pages. It is FAR more simple for an average non-tech user to update content. This was a major win in my eyes. Most users were struggling to update content with the other options because it wasn't fluid or as WYSIWYG. The inline editing of C5 is outstanding.
That said, it was also very easy to convert HTML into templates using the tagging commands of C5. So in no time at all, I could take a site that was static HTML or PHP and convert it into a C5 instance. Again, very simple.
Within the last 6 months or so, I would say the extensibility has increased dramatically. New modules are added to the marketplace nearly daily. Some are FREE and some are paid, but I think ALL of them are cheap for the functionality and worth it. Most are $20 in that range.
If you know PHP well, you can write your own modules easily and not have to pay a dime and also not worry about the C5 core upgrades. There are lots of mechanisms built in that help developers take advantage of the system without having to worry about getting lost in software upgrades. This was another great advantage, that has cost me in the past with other CMS platforms.
In summary... Concrete5 is a top-notch CMS that is widely extensible with a ton of functionality that is super easy for anyone to use.
I've been using concrete5 for about 2 years now and I can wholeheartedly recommend it. Drupal is more powerful, but the amount of work that needs to be done to get to the starting point that c5 gives you right after install is huge. The concrete5 core provides you with a whole lot of stuff out of the box, and adding further functionality is straightforward with its comprehensive (although not always terribly well documented) API and active forums.
In terms of downloadable addons, there are many which cost but I've found that in many cases it's simpler to pay what is normally a low sum to get the functionality I need than to spend all the time (and time = money) coding it myself. Those situations where I've had to code a solution have been pretty painless - any trouble has been my failing, not the CMS'. Hooking into the core is really easy, including adding Dashboard pages for particular functionality (there's a helpful howto from Andrew, the core dev, on the site which explains how to do it).
Of course, the trump card is users' ability to edit their sites without having to understand UI 'metaphors' and 'paradigms'. It just works. You go to the page, click edit, and type away. Simples. My experience with pretty computer-illiterate clients has been very positive indeed, and I feel genuinely confident when I tell new prospects that they can expect to learn how to edit their site in 5 minutes.
I have been using C5 for over a year now. The core team for C5 is committed to making it better and better every release, and they often implement contributed Code....but the thing I like most over say, Joomla, is that the directive of the CMS doesn't change. while it is open source in that solid community contributions that line up with the overall vision will be included, the core team (original developers) oversee all aspects of the code. So it's more carefully comed over than other "community driven" CMS's.
There is a huge community involvement and help in everything from getting started to deep programming.
And above all other things...Clients pick up using the C5 dashboard in minutes. You'll be lucky to get that in most other CMS's.
I have enough experience with to confidently say that it is pretty extensible. There are modules for most common things that you would want to do. If there isn't you can always create you own module. Downside is that the learning curve can be a bit overwhelming at first. Drupal's UI had been lacking but it's been improved with Drupal 7. But it also benefits from a decent sized community.
I also dabbled a bit in Concrete5 and was impressed with it's easy to use content editing functions. From what I remember, there was a smaller learning curve and the metaphor they used for content mimicked a normal static website with files and folders. The other big difference I noticed was that most of the modules have to be paid for. Not sure if that means they would be of higher quality but something else to consider.
I'm also interested in some perspectives from Concrete5 users.
Concrete5 hands down is the best CMS I have used. I'll second what Chad says about clients picking up on C5 in no time at all. When I demo Concrete5 to potential clients that first thing they usually say is "I can do that." Users also love that amount of functionality that comes rigth out of the box and I like that fact that most of the code that I have worked with in my experience has been pretty solid.
As CTO of concrete5 I'm a little bit biased, but I can tell you that concrete5 does offer a lot of extendability, and we try to do so in a way that scales the learning curve along with your knowledge of the system.
For example, the CMS tools are simple to understand right out of the gate. You can build sites with no customization that clients can easily edit. Then, when you need a bit more, you can go to our marketplace to download free or commercial add-ons that extend the functionality of your site. Once that isn't enough, it's easy to create custom block types which present small, encapsulated bits of presentational content on your site, and let your clients use the CMS to place new instances of them. If you need more than just bits of content, you can use concrete5's custom model-view-controller functionality to start working with full pages and external scripts. From there you can start diving into the framework itself, including our concept of events (similar to hooks in Drupal/Wordpress), helpers, attributes, and libraries, and start working with our file manager, user manager, permissions and interface at a low level. You don't need to know any of that stuff to get started, however, which is what we think makes concrete5 so compelling.
And, as Chad mentioned, when you get the stuck, the community is one of the best and most responsive out there.
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Looking for some feedback on those of you who have evaluated umbraco lately.
I've been on a quest for the 'best' cms that balances ease of use/extendability/customization etc. to use as a base for a new vertical product I am in the planning stages on, so for the past month or so I have been downloading, installing, reading source code and creating test sites in every asp.net cms I can get my hands on - and so far I have pulled down GraffitCMS, MojoPortal, Oxite, Orchard, Kuboo and maybe a couple of others that I am not remembering of the top of my head.
For each of those, except Umbraco, I have been up and running in less than a couple of hours, including adding pages, customizing templates, and in some cases (especially Graffiti), writing drop in widgets in C# in a matter of just a few hours....
But with Umbraco, after wrestling it for almost 2 days just getting it to run, and now another morning watching videos, and then building pages etc, I am still unable to even get even a simple site operational, and even the pages I have gotten working crash routinely (not to mention being a dog)...
So, the question is: Am I doing it wrong? or is it really that hard to work with? and more importantly, if I continue to push forward, will it be worth it? or do I cut my losses and move on?
Edit: asp.net with SQL Server support are requirements of anything I pick.
UPDATE ONE YEAR LATER (Feb/2011):
My initial impressions are still accurate, Umbraco is different than most of the other CMS's that I have used in the past, and for me took a bit longer than usual to 'get it', but now that I have, I have to say I have a much better appreciation of the product, what it does, and how it does it - and to top it all of, it really performs really well - especially with the latest release of 4.6.1. So call me a convert - I am glad I stuck it out and then took another look. I only update this post now, over one year later so as not to leave my initial negative 'review' here for posterity.
The learning curve for umbraco is short but steep. Once it all 'clicks' then you'll be up and running in short order.
It's different from other CMS platforms in that you doesn't give you anything out of the box - just a blank canvas to work with. Other cms systems will set you up with a default template and allow you to drop in pre-built functionality. Umbraco is, by design, not like that at all. You only get out what you put in, it doesn't generate anything for you.
This is ideal for developers and designers who want 100% control over their code/markup.
Version 4.7 (currently in release candidate) introduces the Razor syntax for creating macros. This does away with needing XSLT+XPath which I think was a big stumbling block for a lot of people. Even if you're not familiar with Razor, it is much intuitive to learn than the XML based offerings.
The videos have been mentioned by other posters below. $20 is a small price to pay to get up and running quickly.
Does it matter? What I mean is, if you find it hard to use, and there are other alternatives available, why persist? If it's non-intuitive to you, then you're going to find it hard to use. If it doesn't have some killer feature you (think you) need, dump it and move on. You don't need the hassle of trying to wrap your head around some oddly-designed (to you) product, and the product's developers don't need the hassle of trying to support people who think their product should work in some way it wasn't designed to.
None of this is intended to be harsh, just practical. You have the freedom to choose, so choose what works best for you. This sounds like it isn't working, so move on. My brother-in-law wanted to buy a Volvo, but found the controls and dashboard totally confusing, so he wound up with a BMW instead. Nothing wrong with the Volvo, nothing wrong with my brother-in-law, just cognitive dissonance. Don't worry about it.
I've been building sites with Umbraco for something like 5 years now, and I don't recognize your description of Umbraco as a very difficult CMS, but I'll try to provide a few pointers here to help you if you're still considering Umbraco:
Go to http://our.umbraco.org, read the Wiki-pages, and post any questions in the forums there, it's a really friendly community.
Always use Microsofts Web Platform Installer when installing Umbraco, It'll help you create your site, and set up your database. Just be sure not to install Umbraco in a sub/virtual directory, since Umbraco can't handle a setup like that.
If possible, do your install on a development machine with IIS7 and SQL Server Express, it'll work for sure, and deployment of a finished site can be done with a xcopy transfer and a restore of a database backup.
Don't start a new Umbraco site, before you've coded the HTML you'll be using for the site, or at least have a really clear idea about the page types, and html content you'll need.
I hope I'll be seeing you on the Umbraco forums.
Regards
Jesper Hauge
As a grizzled CMS veteran I can say that Umbraco is no harder to set up and use than many other CMS solutions.
However much of whether you find it hard or easy depends largely on your previous experience with CMS and your expectations for what a CMS should provide out of the box.
I've worked mostly with larger CMSs:
Microsoft CMS
Immediacy
Obtree
Reef (anyone remember that one!)
etc....
Against those it is no harder to use and is probably easier as it tends to get out of your way and lets you get on with building the functionality you require.
However if your expectations are more based around things like Wordpress, i.e. install and go but with more limited options, then it can be hard to start with (if you just fire it up without installing a website starter kit).
My recommendation is that if you are building a small site you take a look at the Creative website starter kit at our.umbraco.org. There are also many packages that you can install to make things easier or add specific functionality (including pre-built navigation controls and full blog solutions).
Also take a look at the Wiki on our.umbraco.org and ask questions in the forum, the community is helpful and friendly.
Umbraco is a bit different than other CMSs like Sitefinity, DNN, or Drupal. It does compare well to Sitecore.
Yes, there is a bit of a learning curve. I think the XSLT can cause that, but more likely its just the fact that you have to understand how Umbraco is structured. There are very few "modules" out of the box that you have to arrange and style. Rather, it allows you to easily create your own structure and markup that doesn't force you into a box that is hard to get out of.
I've used Drupal, Sitefinity, WordPress, Sitecore, and some others and frankly Umbraco is my favorite. If you know how to develop great web sites and you don't want limits on your design, markup, or client experience then Umbraco is a great choice. If you aren't really building a site but just want to put pieces together and get "something" working, then it may not be worth your time. If you build lots of sites or want your end users to edit content easily (not just a big rich text editor), then it may be worth overcoming the learning curve.
The videos are totally worth the $20 to watch BTW. They are far better than any documentation you can find and after maybe 5-6 videos you should be "getting it". Just buy one month and cancel after that.
The community is awesome too. If you're struggling, head over to the http://our.umbraco.org forums and get some help. There's lots of it over there.
Also, try installing the Creative Web Starter Kit package or the Blog 4 Umbraco package to get a head start. Those will be more familiar to those coming from a Sitefinity or Drupal background and may help the learning curve flatten out.
Good luck!
As a senior .NET programmer naturally I gravitate to .NET based solutions, and Umbraco seems to be a solid CMS. So I installed it and tried to gain some knowledge and getting it going and these are my findings:
Videos are ridiculously thin on content. The first introductory video talks of a runway. What on earth is a runway??? No jargon please, I'm a first time user.
You have to pay for the most advanced videos. No wonder it hasn't taken off as a mainstream .NET based CMS.
Out of the box demos are non functional (I chose the business theme an the menus don't work)
Admin area very non-intuative
Installation forces Web-Matrix installatiuon.. I have IIS7 and so do our production systems... I DON"T WANT WebMatrix!!! Finding documentation on this is also not easy.
All in all EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING to use and put me off Umbraco totally.
So I've picked up on Wordpress in the mean time and find it extremely easy to extend the admin interface. Documetnation and community support is superb. Just a pity its PHP bases because that won't fly in my company that has invested heavily in .NET developers :-(
Opinions aside, this all depends on your background. I'm a software engineer not a webmaster. So, I think like a software engineer and not like a webmaster.
Umbraco was VERY frustrating for me to install simply because there was no easily found TEXT documentation. Once I finally found that, it was a breeze to install.
The problem for many web designers is that they are not software engineers. Nothing bad about web designers who aren't also software engineers, it's just a different way of seeing the world. I have worked a lot with web designers who needed to interface with my C++ and C# back ends; they have a completely different perspective of almost everything.
Once I got past the goofy implied install process (which is bad, bad, bad -- you should never require another product JUST to install your own!) I found Umbraco to be simple and intuitive. Even my (non-programmer) girlfriend found it to be much more logical than some of the other CMS's we had been playing around with. Drupal, for example, was simple to install, but isn't really designed for a Windows development (ASP.NET/SQL Server) environment and I hate PHP, so I eventually abandoned that. MojoPortal was really nice and simple, but... it was... well... simple. Too simple.
I like Orchard, but the last time I looked at that there was so little in terms of what to start with that I decided that it would be a problem in the immediate future. I wanted a web content management system, not a web development platform. I kept thinking Orchard is a lot like *nix: "A nice place to live, but ya wouldn't wanna visit there."
Umbraco for me is a nice medium place, extremely flexible and easy to extend. It tries very hard to not get in your way. If you want to extend it you would probably do best to either learn C# (or {cringe} VB) or co-opt someone to write the CodeBehind for you. But, using it is extremely simple and straight forward.
I can't say whether it's just hard to use in general - but I came to much of the same conclusion as you did. I was especially disappointed by the lack of useful documentation - all the potentially useful video resources at their website are for pay $$$ only - what's up with that??
Also, the few intro videos I saw never quite clicked with me. They presented lots of concepts, but really never explained them much.
I also had tried Graffiti, but that never quite worked, either - and with its future less than sure, I gave up on that. Others seemed overly complicated for my requirements (Kentico, CommunityServer, and others).
In the end, based on a tip by a fellow on superuser.com, I went with BlogEngine.NET for my club's web site, and so far, I haven't looked back at all. It's pure ASP.NET which appeals to me, it's easily extensible, has a fairly large community with extensions and themes and stuff. From my personal experience, I can only recommend you check it out, if you have a mostly (blog) post based site in mind.
Strange. It takes me 5 minutes to install new Umbraco site, in 2 hours i managed to create standard portfolio website (well, when I've already got used to XSLT). It's very easy to create, modify, add custom controls, add smth to administration section, etc.
What was hard to understand (took me half an hour) that I don't have to write any SQL or C# code until I need some additional data model that's above Documents concept or Umbraco capabilities. Such samples: auto-resizing pictures, invoking some web-service, etc. - anything that comes from business logic layer that can't be covered by CMS model.
In most cases Umbraco is so easy to use that even that little bit of documentation is enough. There's pretty thin and easy API provided by Umbraco, but there's a good tech. level needed from developer, and that's XML 1st of all: XQuery and XPath to use maximum of XSLT.
And once more about installation: I just followed each step of installation guide and that's all.
The problem with Umbraco is that the UI is awkward and it's not immediately apparent how to use it and where to find things. There are several section buttons at the bottom of the page and when you click on one, you're presented with a tree view where you drill down to what you want. This is bad UI 101: no mystery meat. All functions should be organized and visible to the user. Dropdowns with submenus would have been a better approach.
The UI element names are ambiguous. For instance, there's a Members and a Users section, a Developer and a Settings section, a Content and a Media section. Isn't Media supposed to be Content? Aren't Members also Users? Aren't Settings something a Developer would do? You get my drift.
With the release of version 5, none of these issues have been addressed. The best thing they did was to kill XSLT/Classic ASP.NET and replace it with MVC and Razor. This makes getting your head around the product much easier from a developer's standpoint, despite a lack of adequate documentation for version 5. From a content creation standpoint, it's still lacking, however.
If you want to see a great UI, look no further than SiteFinity. Even though the new design isn't as good as SiteFinity 3 versions, it's content editing is the best I've seen on the market. It's too bad it doesn't support MVC and it's controls are cumbersome to modify and style.
what i wish i would have known!
Umbraco - Before you start
I've started figuring out drupal, and so far most of the results are just ugly.
May be I need to learn it in something similar to a real-life project.
I thought — to reproduce this site's functionality might be a good learning project. But I need help. :)
Without assuming this site is based on drupal (it most likely is not — too quick, I think) is there a way to build something similar in functionality (yes, slower, OK if not as fancy as this one, but close) with existing drupal modules and schemes (or with minimal tweaking)?
Or drupal is not good enough for that?
Or — is it too complicated project for a student?
Which existing modules and schemes might help to build something similar?
(No competition is intended with stackoverflow.)
Firstly, Drupal is by no means a slow system, actually it works quite well.
Secondly, this has been already asked and answered here.
By the way Drupal has a medium learning curve but, once you learn how to use you'll find it simple and you'll find it will satisfy almost everything you want to do with it. Its plugin system is just great and it's very SEO friendly (I don't get paid from Drupal I swear, I just happen to like it a lot)
My website is made in drupal if you wanna take a look (is in spanish though).
-Is there a way to build something similar [to stackoverflow] in functionality with existing drupal modules and schemes (or with minimal tweaking)?
It's a good idea to try and learn a new technology by trying to make a real-world project. But if you're intention is to actually learn drupal, then trying to solve the problem with exiting modules and "a minimal amount of tweaking", you might not learn very much!
-Or drupal is not good enough for that?
Drupal is certainly capable of the type of functionality implemented here, and much more.
-Or — is it too complicated project for a student?
It depends on the student. Different people have different abilities. Your mileage may vary.
Some suggestions that might possibly help:
There's a Drupal distribution for it ... (not just a 'module'), i.e ArrayShift. Quote from its project page:
A question/answer site built to emulate the core functionality of sites on the StackExchange platform, such as:
StackOverflow.
Drupal Answers.
There is a Drupal theme for it, i.e the ArrayShift Theme. Here is a screenshot (from its project pages):
It has been in a kind of unsupported status until recently, though the updated project page contains a roadmap to get it going again for D7 (and D8 later on).
Disclosure: I'm the (new) maintainer of ArrayShift (and its related modules and theme),
I hope this does not violate the site's policy on self-promotion.