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I am a novice for both concrete5 and drupal however I have been looking at Concrete5 and Drupal. I am looking to create a web application that needs to be extensible. Client requirement will start from basic content management and it will need to extend to workflow based web application. I have been looking at the architecture for Drupal and Concrete5. For those who haved used either one which one would you recommend? Thanks in advance.
My two cents... Concrete 5 is far superior to Drupal.
I have over 25 sites using C5 right now. I have had 4 drupal installs in the past and have converted all of them to C5. I have also used Joomla, Expression Engine and PyroCMS extensively.
When I first started using C5, there were some great advantages for my customers in terms of end user updates to pages. It is FAR more simple for an average non-tech user to update content. This was a major win in my eyes. Most users were struggling to update content with the other options because it wasn't fluid or as WYSIWYG. The inline editing of C5 is outstanding.
That said, it was also very easy to convert HTML into templates using the tagging commands of C5. So in no time at all, I could take a site that was static HTML or PHP and convert it into a C5 instance. Again, very simple.
Within the last 6 months or so, I would say the extensibility has increased dramatically. New modules are added to the marketplace nearly daily. Some are FREE and some are paid, but I think ALL of them are cheap for the functionality and worth it. Most are $20 in that range.
If you know PHP well, you can write your own modules easily and not have to pay a dime and also not worry about the C5 core upgrades. There are lots of mechanisms built in that help developers take advantage of the system without having to worry about getting lost in software upgrades. This was another great advantage, that has cost me in the past with other CMS platforms.
In summary... Concrete5 is a top-notch CMS that is widely extensible with a ton of functionality that is super easy for anyone to use.
I've been using concrete5 for about 2 years now and I can wholeheartedly recommend it. Drupal is more powerful, but the amount of work that needs to be done to get to the starting point that c5 gives you right after install is huge. The concrete5 core provides you with a whole lot of stuff out of the box, and adding further functionality is straightforward with its comprehensive (although not always terribly well documented) API and active forums.
In terms of downloadable addons, there are many which cost but I've found that in many cases it's simpler to pay what is normally a low sum to get the functionality I need than to spend all the time (and time = money) coding it myself. Those situations where I've had to code a solution have been pretty painless - any trouble has been my failing, not the CMS'. Hooking into the core is really easy, including adding Dashboard pages for particular functionality (there's a helpful howto from Andrew, the core dev, on the site which explains how to do it).
Of course, the trump card is users' ability to edit their sites without having to understand UI 'metaphors' and 'paradigms'. It just works. You go to the page, click edit, and type away. Simples. My experience with pretty computer-illiterate clients has been very positive indeed, and I feel genuinely confident when I tell new prospects that they can expect to learn how to edit their site in 5 minutes.
I have been using C5 for over a year now. The core team for C5 is committed to making it better and better every release, and they often implement contributed Code....but the thing I like most over say, Joomla, is that the directive of the CMS doesn't change. while it is open source in that solid community contributions that line up with the overall vision will be included, the core team (original developers) oversee all aspects of the code. So it's more carefully comed over than other "community driven" CMS's.
There is a huge community involvement and help in everything from getting started to deep programming.
And above all other things...Clients pick up using the C5 dashboard in minutes. You'll be lucky to get that in most other CMS's.
I have enough experience with to confidently say that it is pretty extensible. There are modules for most common things that you would want to do. If there isn't you can always create you own module. Downside is that the learning curve can be a bit overwhelming at first. Drupal's UI had been lacking but it's been improved with Drupal 7. But it also benefits from a decent sized community.
I also dabbled a bit in Concrete5 and was impressed with it's easy to use content editing functions. From what I remember, there was a smaller learning curve and the metaphor they used for content mimicked a normal static website with files and folders. The other big difference I noticed was that most of the modules have to be paid for. Not sure if that means they would be of higher quality but something else to consider.
I'm also interested in some perspectives from Concrete5 users.
Concrete5 hands down is the best CMS I have used. I'll second what Chad says about clients picking up on C5 in no time at all. When I demo Concrete5 to potential clients that first thing they usually say is "I can do that." Users also love that amount of functionality that comes rigth out of the box and I like that fact that most of the code that I have worked with in my experience has been pretty solid.
As CTO of concrete5 I'm a little bit biased, but I can tell you that concrete5 does offer a lot of extendability, and we try to do so in a way that scales the learning curve along with your knowledge of the system.
For example, the CMS tools are simple to understand right out of the gate. You can build sites with no customization that clients can easily edit. Then, when you need a bit more, you can go to our marketplace to download free or commercial add-ons that extend the functionality of your site. Once that isn't enough, it's easy to create custom block types which present small, encapsulated bits of presentational content on your site, and let your clients use the CMS to place new instances of them. If you need more than just bits of content, you can use concrete5's custom model-view-controller functionality to start working with full pages and external scripts. From there you can start diving into the framework itself, including our concept of events (similar to hooks in Drupal/Wordpress), helpers, attributes, and libraries, and start working with our file manager, user manager, permissions and interface at a low level. You don't need to know any of that stuff to get started, however, which is what we think makes concrete5 so compelling.
And, as Chad mentioned, when you get the stuck, the community is one of the best and most responsive out there.
Related
As I am a novice in web development field,I wanted to clarify some questions running in my head.
1. I want to make a website with dynamic features with or without pluggins.Dynamic features can be like anything under the sun.Is it possible that I can make a website using Wordpress(which is mostly considered as blogging platform).
2.Should I learn any of the frameworks like Django or rails,if yes why(its obvious I would have to learn CSS,Ajax,Javascript,PHP)?
3.I don't want to learn drupal as its time for learning curve is very higher than that of wordpress.(Yes I can think of Joomla,but I don't know how much time it takes to learn from scratch as compared to wordpress)
4.Again I want to repeat, the dynamic features can be like anything under the sun whatever I can think of.Will it be fully customizable after I get my hands perfectly on learning some languages and frameworks.I know there are many pluggins and themes in Wordpress.
5.I also want to make a rich platform for advertisement which will be commercial.Is it possible that I make a model of advertisement which is in my mind which can link to any other websites,blogs,people(users).
In regards to your question about learning frameworks, if you're completely new to web design, I would have to highly suggest the PHP route... it's much much easier to learn and is a lot less complicated that Django. The problems and ideas you come up with during have been encountered 1000 times before and are usually easily search-able and fix-able.
The short answer to your long question is, yes, WordPress is a good place to start. As a relative beginner it will help you create a simple website at first, but will allow you to add complexity as your coding skills and knowledge of the platform increase. If you want to create Software as a Service applications, you should choose something else to get into (Ruby on Rails or asp.net would be good choices), but if you just want to create a nice, complex, dynamic website WordPress is a great way to go.
So to answer your questions specifically 1.Yes. 2. You don't need to to begin. 3. Not a question, but I basically agree. 4. Wordpress will not limit you much initially. It will limit you more than, say, Ruby on Rails, but it will probably take your coding skills years to "outgrow" WordPress. 5. That should be fine.
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I'm very new to coding (having only taken Web Development 101 at university aka 'OMG CSS u guise'), and I'm just beginning to realize that knowing HTML/CSS alone isn't good enough. I've decided that it would be best for me to learn the hell out of one CMS, because I'm not keen on learning a full programming language. Mainly I just want to be able to create websites that load instantly (think Sproutcore home page) that happen to use some kind of templating system to make things easier to administer over time.
I've looked into WordPress, and I know that it's a super popular platform for a reason, but it seems like most sites running WordPress don't load very quickly. I've read around a bit and it seems like the opinion of a lot of coders out there is that WP is a "heavy" platform. And, besides, I just recently viewed source on wordpress.org and found that they're not even running WordPress there! I mean come on!
I've also looked into ExpressionEngine, and I'm very impressed with the way things are done. It seems like after the learning curve it should be simple to use and highly extensible, but at $300 per commercial site license + the cost of add-ons, I'd like to be a bit more convinced of it's value. I know that AListApart, JasonSantaMaria.com, change.gov, iLounge, and many more high quality, high traffic sites run on ExpressionEngine, but I'm not totally convinced it's worth the price given that WP can surely do the job well enough in 90% of cases.
I would really appreciate your opinion.
Maybe I should just say F all this, and create my static pages with straight HTML/CSS, and then use a blogging platform like Tumblr or WordPress strictly for blog posts, as per Sproutcore?
Would love to hear your opinion.
For developing a commercial website that needs to run "in the real world", $300+/- is a very compelling price. This isn't to do with Expression Engine specifically, but any good commercial CMS. Nearly anything can do the job - including WordPress - it's just a matter of how easily and quickly it lets you do your job. Nothing is free - it's just a matter of whether you - or your users - pay for it in time, or in dollars (or Euros. Or Crowns... whatever). Amortize $300 over the life of the product - from the first big setup to every time you need to make a tweak - and think about how much effort EllisLab developers have spent themselves, and thus saved you. Then think about how little they're actually charging for that value.
Or, if WP happens to align perfectly with your needs, just use that.
But I strongly support commercial software products (partly because I work with them and make them) and IMO 4 times out of 5, the ROI is better than a free alternative.
EE is perhaps worth the price if it is the solution that meets all of your requirements. You need to use the right tool for the job. It will not do you well to learn just one CMS and then try to shape all your problems to fit that solution. I suggest you learn the features and downsides of several CMSs and apply whichever one is the best for the particular site you are working on. Or even use a combination. Limiting yourself to learning just one CMS as if it is the be-all-and-end-all of CMSs will only hurt you, and it might make your customers miserable when they're forced to use a product that wasn't even designed with their needs in mind.
You say that wordpress.org doesn't use WordPress, but I suggest you look more closely. The wordpress.org site is quite complex, therefore it might not make sense to use WP as the main CMS for that site. But did you look at the Blog (aka News) section? That's running on WP. Look at the Showcase section. That's WP too!
My guess is that they use WP where it's appropriate, and perhaps something else where WP isn't appropriate. Which brings me back to my original point: You need to use the right tool for the job.
Edit #1 - Oh, and as for your interest in making fast-loading sites: The CMS has some influence on that because some have more overhead than others, but the CMS is not the only thing that affects a site's performance. Sproutcore loads fast because it's a tiny page, it's got only one small image and a tiny stylesheet. So of course it's going to load fast! You can make a complex site load fast, too, if you use things like caching, small graphics, code/database optimizations, content delivery networks, throw more hardware at it, etc etc etc.
Edit #2 - If you're interested in creating static sites for performance, but you want to have some templating control, take a look at Jekyll. It's a script that combines your templates with plain text files that are formatted using Textile or Markdown, and spits out complete HTML pages. You might also be interested in Movable Type, which is a platform that can generate static HTML. Once again, the right tool for the job... there are so many choices out there.
I used ExpressionEngine professionally for about two years, compared to other "content management systems" out there I think it gets the job done well. In order to make Wordpress or Drupal do the same out of the box features ExpressionEngine has takes a bit of tweaking or php knowledge. ExpressionEngine was a great tool for me while I used it. The templating language and admin aren't too hard to get into with only html and css knowledge. Using third-party addons such as Structure and most from Pixel & Tonic will make your sites easy to develop and most of all easy for clients to manage.
Wordpress is a blogging platform, not a CMS. I find the admin too bare bones and confusing for clients to properly separate and manage their different kinds of structured content. It works great for blogging, but try to make a staff page or anything more structured and it falls apart.
If price is an issue I would recommend looking into Symphony CMS, which follows a similar concept to organization of content as ExpressionEngine. Though you have to learn XSLT, which can be a bigger learning curve than EE's own tag language. But, it's free.
I primarily work with projects now using Django, which is a python framework and will have a bigger learning curve than Wordpress, ExpressionEngine or Symphony. But it gets the job done for small and large projects alike. If you're looking to take the plunge so to speak, might as well go straight for the jugular.
Having dealt with both, between WordPress and ExpressionEngine, EE is not worth it. The community is nowhere near as supportive or vibrant, and there is nothing EE can do (after hours of painstaking configuration, mind you) that WordPress doesn't do better (in my opinion). Add to that the best plugin interface I've ever seen, and WordPress truly is limited only by the imagination and capabilities of the developer. And the technology, I suppose.
WordPress is not always the best tool for the job, but I'd say it is always a better tool than EE.
As most people have already said it depends on the site. But in my opinion for most sites ExpressionEngine is a better choice than WordPress. The $300 for the license gets you support from paid support staff plus the community is really awesome.
Paid software will always, in my opinion, be a cheaper solution than free software as you're getting better quality code, guaranteed support and a commitment from the developers. Try getting support for wordpress and it will run you $15,000 per year or more.
Additionally in order to do anything truly special with WP you need to know wordpress with EE you can build outstanding sites without any php knowledge and you're not forced to work within the confines of what is essentially blogging software. Admittedly it's gotten a little beyond blogging recently buy it nowhere near as flexible as EE.
Sean
To speed up WordPress, you can use caching and minification plugins, like WP Super Cache,
W3 Total Cache, and WP Minify — or even go with a specialized hosting provider like WP Engine.
Caching can speed up WordPress significantly. What it does in some cases, in fact, is actually create static files that are loaded on subsequent page requests.
As for minification, they say that 20% of loading time is server-side, and 80% is front-end code. (Of course, server-side delays are generally worse in than front-end delays, but still...) So when you're thinking of optimizing, front-end is often the first place to think about.
I have made many sites with WordPress and I'm finishing my first EE2 site.
My choice for future sites will mainly be based on the type of content the site needs. If the site needs pages and some sort of "posts" like a blog or simple news feed, WP is a good candidate. If there are other types of content EE2 might be the way to go as you create a new channel for each type of content (pages, posts, events, products, etc). Relating all these types of content to other content with the Playa Add-on has been pretty cool too.
In WP you can create a custom post type and customize the fields to create a suitable home for these other types of content, but by default it's meant for blogs. So I wouldn't say that WP can't be a CMS, I would say it's a blogging engine that can be a CMS with some work.
Two problems with EE instead WP. First, you can find many out-of-the-box solutions for WordPress from themes to plugins that can let a site with simple needs be created quickly. If I have a project that needs to go up quickly, find a premium theme that fits good enough, do some slight modifications and I'm done. The second thing is that for the average person WordPress will be easier to use in creating and maintaining content, especially if the content is posts and/or pages.
And use WP Super Cache to speed up WordPress!
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I'm just starting to learn Drupal, and I am really liking it.
What are the most common pitfalls for a beginner? How can they be avoided?
First of all you should be clear with yourself on what you are trying to learn:
Theming?
Site building?
Developing new modules/functionality?
Of course the boundaries of each of those areas are not sharp, but the patterns that you will follow to learn about drupal will be quite different. Here's my opinion:
General pitfall (applies to all areas)
The single most recurrent mistake beginners do is to be in a hurry. In a world of books with titles like "learn to master C++ in 24 hours or less" people approaches drupal believing that they can get away with a couple of days of playing around with somebody's else code. If they do not understand at first sight how things work in Drupal they switch to rant mode and begin to post on blogs and forums on how much drupal is stupidly complicated.
So: be prepared to invest time and energy to embrace the high level of complexity (which is something different than complication) of Drupal. Be prepared to actually study how things work rather than skim over help requests on forums and mailing lists. If you are still not convinced. Here it comes some good reading.
If you are learning about theming
Pitfall: learning by trying to hack a previously existing theme.
A better way: first off, give at least a good in-depth look at the Drupal theming guide. It's dry and it's boring but it gives you a good overview of the flow of the theming engine. Then download and install the zen theme and start you theme by using the starter kit that is included. I recommend - if you use Drupal 6 - to use the version 2 of the theme, although in beta, as it has a much more logical organisation of its internal files, at least IMO.
If you are learning about building sites
Pitfall: getting overwhelmed by the amount of available modules and missing out on the big ones.
A better way: read some of the case studies that have been presented over the years on drupal.org. You will get a pretty nice idea of what are common patterns in implementing functionality by means of contributed modules. Explore and understand the core components of drupal well. They are the basis for everything else, so you will definitively need to know how the mechanism of nodes and revision works, what is the functioning of the taxonomy, how the permission/roles system work, what are the differences between nodes and blocks etc... Do not miss out on CCK and Views, which - although they are (until now) contributed modules, are a component of 99% of the drupal sites "out there".
If you are learning about writing your own modules
Pitfall: trying to put together a functionality by mean of assembling PHP and jQuery snippets of code retrieved here and there on the web.
A better way of doing: if you want to be good at drupal you can't afford to go by the just in time learning paradigma, you have to go for the old-school just in case one. You really need to have a general overall understanding of all the components of the system (amongst others: form API, menu system, hook logic, js in Drupal, node processing, theming engine, localisation, caching...). Drupal is somehow a framework, and if you do not know well the ecosystem in which you are planting your code, chances are you will spent lot of time in producing an horrible code that will soon or later fail in doing what it is supposed to. Above all you will take a lot of time to code something that possibly would have taken a fraction of the time to be realised "the drupal way".
My opinion about possible tools for learning to code well in drupal
http://drupal.org - Is packed with useful information, but it is so messy and the ratio signal/noise is so low that I would discourage to use the site as your main source of information.
Books - IMO if you are new to Drupal it might be worth to invest on a couple of books. Books provide that logical structure and learning sequence that you can't have by jumping from one site to the other, following a screencast here and a how-to there. My top three: Module development is a book very well written, with a smart progression of topics, it actually guides you to writing a few modules with increasing complexity. It is a good reading to quickly get an idea of how drupal works. Pro Drupal Develpment is the book for Drupal. It is quite dry and - although it has examples of code all along - I like it more as a study-book / reference text. Be sure to get the second edition as the first one deals with Drupal 5, which is going to be obsolete soon. The only noticeable shortcoming of Pro Drupal Development is javascript (introduced in a very hasty way). JS and Drupal is a wide topic, and for that purpose I like Drupal 6 Javascript and jQuery better as the first book I mentioned, this book is also project-based (i.e. You learn things in relation to the needs to implement a project).
Other websites - They are an invaluable source of information and examples. It is the perfect place to search when you have a general understanding on how to realise things, but too little experience in a specific domain to be autonomous (and everybody, no matter how experienced, have some domains in which they are not "pro"). Some good websites have been already mentioned by others. My all-time favourite is lullabot but drupal dojo and learn by the drop are also very good.
Community - This is a huge asset of drupal. The community is very big and very helpful and you are likely to all the time find somebody wishing to help. The IRC channel is a good place to start.
Meetings - Every 6 months the Drupal community meets for a few days (once in North America and once in Europe) to exchange expertise and information. Although travelling to DrupalCon can be (too) expensive for doing it, since a couple of meetings the community got organised to post all the videos of all the sessions held. They are an excellent resource too.
Hope this helps to get you going, and best luck with your learning! :)
For Drupal beginners, and "especially" if, like me, one has a firm grasp of MVC or MVP concepts, I would recommend buying or borrowing "Pro Drupal 7 Development", Third Edition.
As for pitfalls:
Learn the menu (routing) system
Embrace the Form API
While some have embraced Zen, I have personally embraced Omega
As one stated earlier, Views are your friend. Model and create as many "Content Types" as needed, then use Views to display them.
CTools is great, Views is the best sauce on planet Drupal, but tread lightly around the Panels and Page Manager interface. :)
I hope that helps.
Learn to theme using the Zen theme or something like it as a base
Theme fields, not pages
Views are your friend
ImageCache rocks
You could - a lot of people started with the Garland theme that comes with Drupal and got stuck because it has logic in the middle (big no-no in a theme) and renamed its parts confusingly. Zen is documented.
Here's a podcast at Lullabot about it:
http://www.lullabot.com/audiocast/podcast-74-drupal-design-round-table
One common pitfall is not to do enough research on the different modules available for each task or function that you are trying to accomplish. It is very easy to install a module in Drupal and start working with it without fully understanding the nuances of that module. It might seem as though the module is working as expected. However, halfway though your project you might find that that a particular module has a limitation or issue that cannot be overcome without major custom code. Another module might have been just as appropriate for the project but also met your additional requirement. A good example of this is deciding how to setup your user permissions. There are many modules that help enhance Drupal's out of the box permissions system but each one works differently and has a specific feature set. Do you need special login screens for different users, workflow requirements, etc? Also included in this is a proper evaluation of whether you should use a module that does not quite meet your needs or write your own instead. Without fully understanding the limitations of the module as related to your specific requirements you could go down a path where you would spend a lot of time trying to fit the module into your needs instead of just quickly building one from scratch that exactly matches your requirements.
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Looking for some feedback on those of you who have evaluated umbraco lately.
I've been on a quest for the 'best' cms that balances ease of use/extendability/customization etc. to use as a base for a new vertical product I am in the planning stages on, so for the past month or so I have been downloading, installing, reading source code and creating test sites in every asp.net cms I can get my hands on - and so far I have pulled down GraffitCMS, MojoPortal, Oxite, Orchard, Kuboo and maybe a couple of others that I am not remembering of the top of my head.
For each of those, except Umbraco, I have been up and running in less than a couple of hours, including adding pages, customizing templates, and in some cases (especially Graffiti), writing drop in widgets in C# in a matter of just a few hours....
But with Umbraco, after wrestling it for almost 2 days just getting it to run, and now another morning watching videos, and then building pages etc, I am still unable to even get even a simple site operational, and even the pages I have gotten working crash routinely (not to mention being a dog)...
So, the question is: Am I doing it wrong? or is it really that hard to work with? and more importantly, if I continue to push forward, will it be worth it? or do I cut my losses and move on?
Edit: asp.net with SQL Server support are requirements of anything I pick.
UPDATE ONE YEAR LATER (Feb/2011):
My initial impressions are still accurate, Umbraco is different than most of the other CMS's that I have used in the past, and for me took a bit longer than usual to 'get it', but now that I have, I have to say I have a much better appreciation of the product, what it does, and how it does it - and to top it all of, it really performs really well - especially with the latest release of 4.6.1. So call me a convert - I am glad I stuck it out and then took another look. I only update this post now, over one year later so as not to leave my initial negative 'review' here for posterity.
The learning curve for umbraco is short but steep. Once it all 'clicks' then you'll be up and running in short order.
It's different from other CMS platforms in that you doesn't give you anything out of the box - just a blank canvas to work with. Other cms systems will set you up with a default template and allow you to drop in pre-built functionality. Umbraco is, by design, not like that at all. You only get out what you put in, it doesn't generate anything for you.
This is ideal for developers and designers who want 100% control over their code/markup.
Version 4.7 (currently in release candidate) introduces the Razor syntax for creating macros. This does away with needing XSLT+XPath which I think was a big stumbling block for a lot of people. Even if you're not familiar with Razor, it is much intuitive to learn than the XML based offerings.
The videos have been mentioned by other posters below. $20 is a small price to pay to get up and running quickly.
Does it matter? What I mean is, if you find it hard to use, and there are other alternatives available, why persist? If it's non-intuitive to you, then you're going to find it hard to use. If it doesn't have some killer feature you (think you) need, dump it and move on. You don't need the hassle of trying to wrap your head around some oddly-designed (to you) product, and the product's developers don't need the hassle of trying to support people who think their product should work in some way it wasn't designed to.
None of this is intended to be harsh, just practical. You have the freedom to choose, so choose what works best for you. This sounds like it isn't working, so move on. My brother-in-law wanted to buy a Volvo, but found the controls and dashboard totally confusing, so he wound up with a BMW instead. Nothing wrong with the Volvo, nothing wrong with my brother-in-law, just cognitive dissonance. Don't worry about it.
I've been building sites with Umbraco for something like 5 years now, and I don't recognize your description of Umbraco as a very difficult CMS, but I'll try to provide a few pointers here to help you if you're still considering Umbraco:
Go to http://our.umbraco.org, read the Wiki-pages, and post any questions in the forums there, it's a really friendly community.
Always use Microsofts Web Platform Installer when installing Umbraco, It'll help you create your site, and set up your database. Just be sure not to install Umbraco in a sub/virtual directory, since Umbraco can't handle a setup like that.
If possible, do your install on a development machine with IIS7 and SQL Server Express, it'll work for sure, and deployment of a finished site can be done with a xcopy transfer and a restore of a database backup.
Don't start a new Umbraco site, before you've coded the HTML you'll be using for the site, or at least have a really clear idea about the page types, and html content you'll need.
I hope I'll be seeing you on the Umbraco forums.
Regards
Jesper Hauge
As a grizzled CMS veteran I can say that Umbraco is no harder to set up and use than many other CMS solutions.
However much of whether you find it hard or easy depends largely on your previous experience with CMS and your expectations for what a CMS should provide out of the box.
I've worked mostly with larger CMSs:
Microsoft CMS
Immediacy
Obtree
Reef (anyone remember that one!)
etc....
Against those it is no harder to use and is probably easier as it tends to get out of your way and lets you get on with building the functionality you require.
However if your expectations are more based around things like Wordpress, i.e. install and go but with more limited options, then it can be hard to start with (if you just fire it up without installing a website starter kit).
My recommendation is that if you are building a small site you take a look at the Creative website starter kit at our.umbraco.org. There are also many packages that you can install to make things easier or add specific functionality (including pre-built navigation controls and full blog solutions).
Also take a look at the Wiki on our.umbraco.org and ask questions in the forum, the community is helpful and friendly.
Umbraco is a bit different than other CMSs like Sitefinity, DNN, or Drupal. It does compare well to Sitecore.
Yes, there is a bit of a learning curve. I think the XSLT can cause that, but more likely its just the fact that you have to understand how Umbraco is structured. There are very few "modules" out of the box that you have to arrange and style. Rather, it allows you to easily create your own structure and markup that doesn't force you into a box that is hard to get out of.
I've used Drupal, Sitefinity, WordPress, Sitecore, and some others and frankly Umbraco is my favorite. If you know how to develop great web sites and you don't want limits on your design, markup, or client experience then Umbraco is a great choice. If you aren't really building a site but just want to put pieces together and get "something" working, then it may not be worth your time. If you build lots of sites or want your end users to edit content easily (not just a big rich text editor), then it may be worth overcoming the learning curve.
The videos are totally worth the $20 to watch BTW. They are far better than any documentation you can find and after maybe 5-6 videos you should be "getting it". Just buy one month and cancel after that.
The community is awesome too. If you're struggling, head over to the http://our.umbraco.org forums and get some help. There's lots of it over there.
Also, try installing the Creative Web Starter Kit package or the Blog 4 Umbraco package to get a head start. Those will be more familiar to those coming from a Sitefinity or Drupal background and may help the learning curve flatten out.
Good luck!
As a senior .NET programmer naturally I gravitate to .NET based solutions, and Umbraco seems to be a solid CMS. So I installed it and tried to gain some knowledge and getting it going and these are my findings:
Videos are ridiculously thin on content. The first introductory video talks of a runway. What on earth is a runway??? No jargon please, I'm a first time user.
You have to pay for the most advanced videos. No wonder it hasn't taken off as a mainstream .NET based CMS.
Out of the box demos are non functional (I chose the business theme an the menus don't work)
Admin area very non-intuative
Installation forces Web-Matrix installatiuon.. I have IIS7 and so do our production systems... I DON"T WANT WebMatrix!!! Finding documentation on this is also not easy.
All in all EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING to use and put me off Umbraco totally.
So I've picked up on Wordpress in the mean time and find it extremely easy to extend the admin interface. Documetnation and community support is superb. Just a pity its PHP bases because that won't fly in my company that has invested heavily in .NET developers :-(
Opinions aside, this all depends on your background. I'm a software engineer not a webmaster. So, I think like a software engineer and not like a webmaster.
Umbraco was VERY frustrating for me to install simply because there was no easily found TEXT documentation. Once I finally found that, it was a breeze to install.
The problem for many web designers is that they are not software engineers. Nothing bad about web designers who aren't also software engineers, it's just a different way of seeing the world. I have worked a lot with web designers who needed to interface with my C++ and C# back ends; they have a completely different perspective of almost everything.
Once I got past the goofy implied install process (which is bad, bad, bad -- you should never require another product JUST to install your own!) I found Umbraco to be simple and intuitive. Even my (non-programmer) girlfriend found it to be much more logical than some of the other CMS's we had been playing around with. Drupal, for example, was simple to install, but isn't really designed for a Windows development (ASP.NET/SQL Server) environment and I hate PHP, so I eventually abandoned that. MojoPortal was really nice and simple, but... it was... well... simple. Too simple.
I like Orchard, but the last time I looked at that there was so little in terms of what to start with that I decided that it would be a problem in the immediate future. I wanted a web content management system, not a web development platform. I kept thinking Orchard is a lot like *nix: "A nice place to live, but ya wouldn't wanna visit there."
Umbraco for me is a nice medium place, extremely flexible and easy to extend. It tries very hard to not get in your way. If you want to extend it you would probably do best to either learn C# (or {cringe} VB) or co-opt someone to write the CodeBehind for you. But, using it is extremely simple and straight forward.
I can't say whether it's just hard to use in general - but I came to much of the same conclusion as you did. I was especially disappointed by the lack of useful documentation - all the potentially useful video resources at their website are for pay $$$ only - what's up with that??
Also, the few intro videos I saw never quite clicked with me. They presented lots of concepts, but really never explained them much.
I also had tried Graffiti, but that never quite worked, either - and with its future less than sure, I gave up on that. Others seemed overly complicated for my requirements (Kentico, CommunityServer, and others).
In the end, based on a tip by a fellow on superuser.com, I went with BlogEngine.NET for my club's web site, and so far, I haven't looked back at all. It's pure ASP.NET which appeals to me, it's easily extensible, has a fairly large community with extensions and themes and stuff. From my personal experience, I can only recommend you check it out, if you have a mostly (blog) post based site in mind.
Strange. It takes me 5 minutes to install new Umbraco site, in 2 hours i managed to create standard portfolio website (well, when I've already got used to XSLT). It's very easy to create, modify, add custom controls, add smth to administration section, etc.
What was hard to understand (took me half an hour) that I don't have to write any SQL or C# code until I need some additional data model that's above Documents concept or Umbraco capabilities. Such samples: auto-resizing pictures, invoking some web-service, etc. - anything that comes from business logic layer that can't be covered by CMS model.
In most cases Umbraco is so easy to use that even that little bit of documentation is enough. There's pretty thin and easy API provided by Umbraco, but there's a good tech. level needed from developer, and that's XML 1st of all: XQuery and XPath to use maximum of XSLT.
And once more about installation: I just followed each step of installation guide and that's all.
The problem with Umbraco is that the UI is awkward and it's not immediately apparent how to use it and where to find things. There are several section buttons at the bottom of the page and when you click on one, you're presented with a tree view where you drill down to what you want. This is bad UI 101: no mystery meat. All functions should be organized and visible to the user. Dropdowns with submenus would have been a better approach.
The UI element names are ambiguous. For instance, there's a Members and a Users section, a Developer and a Settings section, a Content and a Media section. Isn't Media supposed to be Content? Aren't Members also Users? Aren't Settings something a Developer would do? You get my drift.
With the release of version 5, none of these issues have been addressed. The best thing they did was to kill XSLT/Classic ASP.NET and replace it with MVC and Razor. This makes getting your head around the product much easier from a developer's standpoint, despite a lack of adequate documentation for version 5. From a content creation standpoint, it's still lacking, however.
If you want to see a great UI, look no further than SiteFinity. Even though the new design isn't as good as SiteFinity 3 versions, it's content editing is the best I've seen on the market. It's too bad it doesn't support MVC and it's controls are cumbersome to modify and style.
what i wish i would have known!
Umbraco - Before you start
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I talked to a few friends who say that Drupal is amazing, and it is a way better than Joomla. What are the major differences/advantages?
The general consensus is that programmers prefer Drupal whereas mere mortals prefer Joomla. Joomla is praised for having a simpler user interface. (I personally don't agree with that; I think Joomla's UI is pretty painful to use. But then again, I'm looking at it with a programmer's eye.) Drupal, on the other hand, is praised for its high level of extensibility, along with its large library of high-quality (more or less) plug-ins that add features ("modules" in Drupal lingo) and many of which are extensible themselves.
Start using Joomla today, and you'll probably end up with a decent but not quite perfect web site tonight. Start using Drupal today, and you'll be able to build exactly the web site you're wishing for - once you've put the time in.
If you're considering parlaying your skills into a paid job one day, you should definitely side with Drupal.
The community around drupal - theres a module to do just about everything. Sometimes, theres more than one way to do something too.
If you want to change almost anything, from presentation (themes) to function (hooks), its possible. However, its not MVC and it does take a lot of getting used to.
With Views + CCK + Panels Module, you rarely need to touch code to create a wide variety of pages.
Finally, Drupal's User and Roles system is much more flexible.
The API. Every form and pretty much every bit of functionality can be modified via a module that hooks into the API, without having touch core code. This makes upgrades much easier, as your customisations aren't overwritten.
The code it outputs by default is much nicer, as well.
Under the hood, Joomla runs on mostly an OO architecture, whereas Drupal is almost entirely procedural with OO paradigms. Joomla has no form builder (that I am aware of), so you are forced to hand-code entire blocks of html for the form, whereas, with Drupal, you create forms as structured arrays. In Joomla, creating administrative features and front end featured requires that you place files in both administrative directories and in front end directories or create an install file to correctly partition things for you. In Drupal, everything pertaining to a particular module is contained in 1 directory, and you control access and url structure.
In general, Joomla's admin GUI is considered prettier and more user-friendly than Drupal's, but Joomla is, in my opinion, a less intuitive system at the programming level and makes certain tasks more difficult than necessary. 2 areas where Drupal truly outshines Joomla in my opinion is in the ability to create various content types - with various fields - on the fly to easily segment data, and the ability to create pretty seo-friendly urls with path or, even better, with pathauto.
Bottom Line: Joomla tends to look pretty from an administration perspective, but Drupal tends to outperform Joomla and be a more easily customizable system to achieve many of the things you really want out of a CMS.
Starting off, Joomla is fun and easy, from both an administrative and user view, but once the site needs to be customised (naturally), it becomes a pain.
In my opinion, Drupal is opposite. It has a steep learning curve (the pain part), but becomes easier not harder over time. This is from both the admin and user part.
For what it's worth Joomla before 1.5 was pretty ugly, and the API included a lot of very specific calls related to older Mambo code. The most recent version, and all future versions are built ontop of a very powerful OO framework, so if you haven't looked at it recently, do now.
Drupal shines with these two modules.
CCK: Adds custom fields to nodes
Views: Controls how lists of content are presented; it is essentially a smart query builder
What I like about Drupal is the plugin model: you have your core of drupal, and you can customize it however you want it by creating your own seperate template directory and modules (the plugins).
For a complete technical overview you can also tick Drupal and Joomla in http://www.cmsmatrix.org/matrix/cms-matrix