Are CSS reset pages (like this one) still necessary in today's age? I assume the answer is yes but looking to see if I get surprised.
I've read thoroughly the HTML5 BoilerPlate from Paul Irish but don't see myself adopting a standard that isn't necessarily standard. [Rhetorical] Isn't this at least some cause of what got us into this mess if you put aside the IE bashing?
yes, the same reasons they were created still exist: several browsers have several different implementations of CSS, and this is one way to take care of them.
Necessary? No.
Some developers like to use them, some don't, but they are definitely not necessary.
Necessary? No. I actually think it never has been necessary. But a CSS reset will help you to make your project look the same in every browser and might save you a lot of time of browser-testing and debugging.
I'm using my own reset file, customized to my needs:
http://www.htmltweaks.com/Reset_Browser-Specific_CSS_Styles
only if you want to have an easier time getting your site to look the same in all browsers.
If that is not a requirement, or if you don't mind having a hard time getting IE to follow suit then by all means. A lot of developers every day are making sites without css-resets.
They are no less necessary than they ever were. IE6 still has a significant market share.
Related
I'm currently developing a professional website and I have reached around 750 lines of CSS for around 4 pages, the bulk going into the homepage. I have curly braces in separate lines. I could probably reduce it a bit by going through it again.
But I was just wondering, what would you consider as being too much css?
Regards,
I think there isn't a limit at all. Just write the code you need, and when you've finished try to optimize it.
A gotcha on this (not directly related to the OP, but for others who might come here) ...
IE9 and below only recognizes the first 4096 selectors in a CSS file. Everything after that is merely silently ignored.
How large is your CSS File? Sure, you have to worry about hard the browser has to work in terms on load when interpreting the CSS.. is it efficient, are you over working it?
Keep your size as low as possible is a given, but there are quite a few factors to think about. You can always minify, gzip compression when your done to save some time. Take a look at a testing tool http://tools.pingdom.com/
There's plenty of articles on this so I won't bother reeling off my personal opinion, so check these out
http://css-tricks.com/efficiently-rendering-css/
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/CSS/Writing_Efficient_CSS?redirectlocale=en-US&redirectslug=Writing_Efficient_CSS
http://speckyboy.com/2011/03/08/website-speed-part-1-write-more-efficient-css/
Assuming your home page doesn't have tens of nested components that have different roles/looks, you're probably being a bit non-clever with your CSS. There are two things to worry about here:
Bandwidth: If your CSS file's size is more than 50KBs or so, some of your clients with low connection speeds/bandwidth might experience
some notable lag.
Rendering: It's possible that your CSS file is complex enough to force the client's layout/rendering engine to make some extra effort while
rendering.
Both the issues would reduce your website time-efficiency. What to do?
The simplest example on how to optimize your CSS file is to collect rules that you use for many elements in one class. There are many other tips to help reduce the size of your CSS file; the other answers already link you to some articles with helpful tips, but if you want to give programs that automate the process a try, take a look at CSS Tidy (and an online tool based on CSS Tidy).
I hope that helped!
It depends on what is your website supposed to do. If it is a small blog and you need, say, 3000 lines of CSS, that is probably too much. If it is an online store with multiple sections and a complicated layout, it might not be enough. It depends on your needs.
Is there a tool what will load my css and then analyzes it and then generates/shows me what to add/change to make it more compatible with other browsers?
There are online tools launching your website in many different browsers taking a screenshot and then display them to you. That way you can check by yourself!
Just google for it or try http://browsershots.org/
A sitebuilder's job is not just to write some CSS that he thinks is cool. It is also a part of the job, to test it against different browsers, the number depending on which ones are supported in the project.
I don't think there can be a tool that can do our job instead of us. All that a sitebuilder can and should do, is collecting knowledge, experience and keeping up with the browsers and techniques. There are no exact rules how to handle cross-browser issues. There are loads of best practices, tips and tricks, and it's always the sitebuilder who has to decide which one to use in that certain situation.
What we have, is great tools to check out our pages in certain browsers, one being what #Thorben suggested.
And I have to add that this is just my opinion, feel free to disagree and argue :).
I'm working in a long started web project that not use a reset stylesheet.
It will be a good idea to include a reset stylesheet given all the things already done?
If the project already works fine, and renders properly in all major browsers, don't worry about a reset sheet. For future case, use reset sheets to quickly set aside browser-differences, and allow yourself to focus on more important things.
Contrary to what others here have mentioned, don't ever use * {margin:0;padding:0}. Instead, I would suggest using Eric Meyers' Reset Stylesheet. It's well-respected by the community of professionals, and has even found itself included in some of the most used css-frameworks.
Meh.
*{margin:0;padding:0}
has always worked just fine for me. But it depends on the nature of the website... if you want a pixel-perfect design, then maybe a reset would be helpful, if you have a more fluid layout... I wouldn't sweat it. I prefer to only reset the elements I'm actually using or need to appear a certain way, and let everything else be "native".
Yes i always reset it using The CSS Reset File
It would be a good idea only if you are ready to check every pages on your web :)
I tend to take the academic approach all too often and adhere to strict principles in my development when the reality is that I could have finished the project sooner had I been a little less cautious. I'm looking to find the right amount of practicality.
I want to take the "Zen" approach to designing a site which (in my words) says "Use HTML strictly for content structure, and let the CSS magic do the rest". How practical is this in reality? One of the issues I run into is that I want to develop (make functional) the site first, then come back in and design it later. I know structure-wise how I want the site to flow, but I haven't even begun playing with the CSS layout, graphics, or any of the other designy stuff. What is the right approach here?
It's absolutely practical, and provides infinite benefit. In fact it's exactly what CSS and the separation of content and layout is designed for.
The right approach given the above, is to let different teams get on with the different tasks at hand. That requires (perhaps) an initial graphic design which can be quite rough, and a documented and collaboratively agreed set of naming conventions for things like "#viewport", ".user" etc..
The markup team will usually be backend driven and will usually lead the design team slightly, but they should and must remain flexible enough to change markup where required, or put that in the control of the designers.
This last is just my $.02, but where one person is both roles, again I think you lead yourself with the markup/backend first and then iteratively go to a design stage, then markup, then design, as required.
The approach you want to follow is the right one. Just two things:
If you use a validator for css or html, don't pretend that all your html or css pass the test. Obviously the ideal goal is that everything validates, but at a first stage I think is better not spend a lot of time in validation issues. And remember that no one validator is perfect, and the good way to use it at the beginning is to guide you in the right direction and avoid big mistakes (i.e. put the same id twice in one page, or put block elements inside inline ones...). Then, when the application is at a good stage, you can make your css and html perfect and valid.
Don't design the interface at the end. I think that the interface of the application can give you good directions in how develop your back-end too. So, at your place, I would design the interface first, with html and css, and then I'd start to add functionality to it.
(Sorry for my english, spelling corrections are welcome.)
It can be very practical and you will be suprised how clean your HTML looks. I like using a CSS reset file to help get started, I personally like the YUI reset. Another Zen item to consider is the use of unobtrusive JavaScript. This further separates the different layers of your code. JavaScript libraries, like jquery, prototype and dojo can help with this.
It can be done, and I think your site (and your web design skills, not least) will be much better for it. But it also has a certain learning curve. It requires a more thorough understanding of the XHTML/CSS specs than many people have.
Making sure your HTML can be validated is just the beginning.
Oh, and make sure all browsers run in strict mode when rendering the page.
Of course, you will require workarounds for IE support, but that can be done with several methods.
First, IE supports conditional comments, allowing you to include special CSS stylesheets just to fix IE bugs, which should get you most of the way, without affecting your compliant standard-version of the page.
For some things, you may need a bit of javascript as well, but it shouldn't be necessary for most common functionality.
There are reasons explained in http://www.webdevout.net/articles/beware-of-xhtml against using XHTML today. To summarize, XHTML is not supported unless you serve it as such and if you target older browsers (any IE version is old considering most of its features are implemented when they were still immature and not changed substantially for a while) you have no choice but serve it as HTML.
Unless you don't require features that being XML provides (like SVG, MathML), stick with HTML. You won't have any serious advantage over HTML, be any more semantic, have better CSS support (even less). But you get wider compatibility and your layout will be more predictable (for example table cells can inherit from first cell in the row in HTML, no such thing in XML, not even sure XHTML has any exceptions somewhere).
Validators won't help writing XHTML any more than HTML. Even annoy, if you use a strict one, leaving you wondering what is all the fuss about / in the br tag if you lie and say it is HTML. (Firefox view source shows it bright red if you serve XHTML as HTML). I am sure you can find more examples.
Sure, you can do that, but be prepared that it WILL NOT render under IE. On a recent web project, the majority of our front-end defects were fixing stuff in IE that already worked fine in Firefox. Maybe this will change in IE8, but I doubt it. In some cases we even had to write some javascript that would be executed on IE only to work around things that couldn't be done with just CSS.
while it sounds good in theory you cant create the layout for a site 100% with css. You still need to use some markup so that you have something to apply the css to. That said, you can come fairly close to ideal using this method. I'm constantly amazed at how little markup a true css guru actually requires.
closer the "zen" approach that you are really looking for is xslt. it works by your app generating xml data and then the xslt transforms that xml into html/css. this requires learning xslt and adds another layer of complication to the process of generating a page, but adds the separation you are looking for. In an ideal world the theory is that a programmer only has to worry about generating xml data and then a designer can generate the visuals using that data, however it rarely works that way as xslt is more technical than most designers can handle. Most of the time the programmer ends up generating the xslt which somewhat defeats the purpose.
One approach that works for me is to structure the HTML first, then add some minimal CSS in a tag in the same file (just enough to create the right layout etc). Then once you're happy with the structure, you can pull the CSS out into separate files and / or completely rework the CSS. This strikes the right balance for me - it's still a lightweight process, but it avoids the potential headache of finding and replacing inline CSS.
In theoria yes, in practice, browser differences may force you to add a bit of javascript to deal with the differences.
Now... Benefits of something is different from practicality of doing it. Are you guys forgetting IE or even the pain-in-the-whatever client who wants the impossible done?
I am tempted to say you have to make some exception to the strict DTD that you are using to make it work in a reasonable set of browsers and please your stakeholder for the website/web-app.
I am a standards freak and no one would be more happy than me if it was possible to build a website that doesn't violate even 1 DTD rule. But after 4 years, I just haven't been able to do it for practical purposes.
Sure if I am the one coming up with the requirements for the website I am going to develop, it might be possible, but I have to bend the business rules to accommodate that. Believe me, that's the only way it is possible.
Developing websites are time-consuming. To improve productivity, I would code a prototype to show to our clients. I don't worry about making the prototype comform to the standard. Most of the time, our clients would approve the prototype and give an unreasonable deadline. I usually end up using the prototype in production (hey, the prototype works. No need to make my job harder.)
I could refactor the code to output valid HTML. But is it worth the effort to output valid HTML?
It is only worth the effort if it gives you a practical benefit. Sticking to standards might make it easier to build a website that works across most browsers. Then again, if you're happy with how a website displays on the browsers you care about (maybe one, maybe all), then going through hoops to make it pass validation is a waste of time.
Also, the difference in SEO between an all-valid html website and a mostly-valid html website is negligible.
So always look for the practical benefit, there are some in some situations, but don't do it just for the sake of it.
Yes. It's hard enough trying to deal with how different browsers will render valid HTML, never mind trying to predict what they'll do with invalid code. Same goes for search engines - enough problems in the HTML may lead to the site not being indexed properly or at all.
I guess the real answer is "it depends on what is invalid about the HTML". If the invalid parts relate to accessibility issues, you might even find your customer has legal problems if they use the site on a commercial basis.
Probably not if you have a non-complying site to begin with and are short on time.
However, and you won't believe me because I didn't believe others to begin with, but it is easier to make a site compliant from the start - it saves you headaches in terms of browser compatibility, CSS behaviour and even JavaScript behavior and it is typically less markup to maintain.
Site compliance (at least to Transitional) is pretty easy.
Producing compliant HTML is similar to ensuring that you have no warnings during a compilation - the warnings are there for a reason, you may not realise what that reason is, but ignore the warnings and, before you know where you are, there as so many, you can't spot the one that's relevant to the problem that you're trying to fix.
If you use Firefox to view your web pages, you'll get a helpful green tick or red cross in the bottom right hand corner, quickly showin you whether you've complied or not. Clicking on a red cross will show you all of the places where you goofed.
Some of the warnings/errors may seem a bit pedantic, but fix them and you'll benefit in many ways.
Your page is much more likely to work with a wider range of browsers.
Accessibility compliance will be easier (You'll have 'alt' attributes on your images, for example)
If you choose XHTML as a standard, your markup will be more likely to be useful in an AJAX environment.
Failure to do this results in unpredictability.
One of the biggest problems with web browsers is that they have perpetuated bad habits (And still do, in some cases) by silently correcting certain markup problems, such as failure to close table cells and/or rows. This single fact has resulted in thousands of web pages that are not compliant but 'work', lulling their developers into a false sense of security.
When you consider how many things there are that can go wrong with a website, being lazy when it comes to compliance is just adding more problems to your workload.
EDIT: having read your original post again, I notice that you say you don't bother with compliance when working on a prototype, then you go on to say that you usually use the prototype in production - this means that it's not strictly a prototype, but a candidate.
The normal situation in such circumstances is that once the customer accepts a candidate, no time is allocated for bug fixing or tidying up, thus strengthening the argument for making the markup compliant in the first place.
If you won't be given time later, do it now.
If you are given time later, then you had the time to do it anyway.
If you want your sight to be accessible to people with and without disabilities, as well as external systems, then yes, you should definitely make sure you output valid HTML.
It's easy to test your HTML with automatic validators.
I'll add to what Mike Edwards said about legal ramifications and remind you that you have a moral obligation too :)
Why not write the prototype in valid (X)HTML in the first place? I've never found that to be more of an effort than using invalid HTML. Producing valid XHTML should be a trivial task. (On the other hand, producing semantically meaningful XHTML might be more taxing.)
In short, I see no advantage whatsoever in using invalid HTML for prototypes.
I honestly dont know why it is extra effort to do standards based HTML. It's not as if it's hard and you should be doing it as a matter of professionalism.
If you paid someone to build you a house and he cut corners out of laziness, that you didnt notice at the time, but in 10 years cracks appeared in your walls, would you be happy?
Valid HTML just to be able to have a badge on your site - no.
Having "valid HTML" in the sense of "HTML that works on every major browser or browser engine" - yes.
Absolutely. Invalid code can cause all sorts of weird behaviors, and errors which don't obscure those that do when you get a validation report.
Case in point:
A yellow background was spilling out of a list of messages and over the heading for the next list of messages - but only in Internet Explorer.
Why? The background was applied to a list item, but the person who wrote the page had written it as a single list with a heading in the middle. Headings are not allowed between list items and different browsers attempted to recover from it in different ways. Internet Explorer ended the list item (with the background colour) when it saw the start of the following item (after the heading), while other browsers ended it when they saw the end tag for the first list item.
It was the only validity error on the page, so it took only a couple of minutes to track down the problem and fix it.
Because, if you stick to standards, your work will be compatible in the future. User Agents will strive for standard compliance and their quirks non-compliance mode will always be subject to change. This is the way is supposed to be.
Unless you're into that whole IE8 broken standards perpetuation thing that they want to enable by default. -- that's another argument.
Webkit, Gecko, Presto? (is that opera's engine?), and the others will always become more compliant with every release.
Unless your html work is in a IE embedded browser control, then there's really no reason to output valid html as long as it renders.
In my opinion the key criterion is "fit for purpose" - If your clients want something for a small/internal market (and don't care if that alienates potential customers who have disabilities or use less-common browsers) then that's their choice.
At the same time I think it's our (as developers) responsibility to make sure they know the implications of their decisions - Some organisations will be bound by legislative requirements that websites be useable by screen readers, which typically means standards-compliant HTML.
i believe making valid html outputs wont hurt your development time that much if you've trained yourself to code valid html from the start. for one, its not that hard to know which tags are not allowed within an elementand the required attributes in a tag are sometimes the ones you'd really need anyway - i believe these are the main errors that makes your html invalid, so why not just learn them as early as now if you plan to stay on the web for long?plus outputting valid html can help boost your sites ranking
There are two rules for writing websites:
The site must work for your users.
The site must work for your users.
To meet the first rule, you have to code such that your site renders correctly when using Internet Explorer. Unless you have the freedom to alter your site design to use only those features that IE renders correctly, this means writing invalid HTML.
To meet the second rule, you have to code such that your site renders correctly when using screen-readers and braille screens. Although some newer screen readers can work with IE-targeted sites, in general this means writing valid HTML.
If you're working on a small project, or you're part of a large team, you can code a site that outputs IE-targeted HTML for IE, and valid HTML otherwise. But if you're taking on a medium-to-large project on your own, you have to decide which rule you're going to follow and which one you're going to ignore.
UPDATE:
This is getting voted down by users who think you can always get away with valid HTML in IE. That may be true if you have the flexibility to change your design to get around IE's shortcomings, but if a client has given you a design and you have to get it working, you may have to resort to invalid HTML. It's sad, but it's true, whatever they might think.